QantasLink Seniority
 

Who's heard that EAA SAA and Sunnies are making a proposal for a joint Qantaslink seniority system to include impulse to try to get progression on to a jet! Who's brain child was this? Would the evil empire entertain the thought of it? Any ideas kids?:eek:

No

Most have seen the proposal now and as it stands no one at Impulse are going to back it. I would also think that big brother would be dead set against it.

Most ammusing however that only six months a go they were calling us scabs and a bunch of other names not worth mentioning, and now they would sell their own children to get a ride...

:p

6 months ago I NEVER called impulse scabs. The people there have been very fortunate. Put yourself in the seats of the blokes who have been there at Eastern for twenty + yrs and the opposition up until 18 months ago now flies the very aircraft that rightly or wrongly they thought they morally had a frair shot at.
Look at the industry over the last year and how many sections of the industry have had to eat humble pie before shooting your mouthoff. You may soon be sitting to the right side of one of these professionals you moron!!!!!!!!!!!1
:D ;)
I do apologise for the words "humble pie." I should have used "extremely bad run" Cheers

Yep, what goes around comes around.

Look at the list;

1. Eastern and Southern have been slagging each other for.... ever.
They are now the same company, hmm that could be difficult, but threr is signs of the hatchet being buried and I don't mean in each others heads

2. All regionals have been slagging NJS for.......... ever.
They are now the operator of the 146's that Southern had, hmmm that could be difficult, still some way to go but the Southern guy's have a lot more respect for the NJS pilots seeing the crap that they are enduring from the Evil Empire, ie CB and now Rocky.

3. Every one has slagged Impulse for .......ever.
They were lucky to be picked up by the Evil Empire, but then again they just discarded the 1900 drivers.

Soooo... it isn't productive, it isn't smart to sit there and shoot your mouths off, sure all pilots are egotistical and selfish but have a look at the big picture it will all turn in the end and yes, you don't know who the "proffessional" will be in the seat next to you in the future.

Unfortunately Wawoftam it is people like you that have and will continue to give your fellow work mates a bad name. More to the point why no one at the pulse would want to see an intergrated seniority list.

If you so desperately want to get off your Dash 8 why not go an apply like everyone else has instead of trying to score a free ride.
I can tell you now there are a lot of jet jockeys out there looking for work which the pulse would no doubt snap up when the need is there.

The only people to gain anything from the intergration proposal is basically the Dash drivers. There is nothing in it for the pulse; infact it with out a doubt takes away some of the advantages that we current may have. As for big brother it will only increase their training cost, so for them to support it would be crazy.

Best of luck....:rolleyes:

Wow, that has got to be the most affirmative statement I have heard, "eat humble pie" sport, you should have a look at your own attitude and tell me is it any different, doesn't look like it!

As I said pilots are selfish sons of bithches, by the way how is .............?

By the way I haven't any desire to apply or work with your company as good as you say it is, each to their own just remember not every one wants the same things, and if you perceive there is a move to "infiltrate" the pulse wake up its not the case. Not all pilots are the same and surprisingly enough it's a few tossers that make it hard for all, don't become one.

Guys
Just remember with a long time Eastern boss now running the Jet show and probably soon Qantaslink show you may find Dash drivers in that right hand seat of the jet sooner than you think.

As they say

I'd rather be lucky than good anyday!!

It seems that the bigger the machinery, the bigger the attittude.

Does size really matter???

Never get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life...Get off the @#$% 'puter and go for a SURF MAN!!!!! :cool:

ie. take a chill pill. What goes around does come around, and there are many ex Ansett guys out there who will find it difficult to get a job on the little red rover (and that might not be the end) - so lets not get in a tit for tat situation where we have to watch our backs for the rest of our careers. Enjoy the short time we have in this world.

Live long and prosper

Laz:cool:

Everyone needs to remember that the reason all the bickering happens is that Qantas plays one group off the next and whoever sucks up the most is in favour at the time.
The sooner all the groups are together the better for all, and qantas will no longer be able to play their game.
As for Impulse being part of it all, someone else summed it up when they said the GM of Impulse is in favour of it, and always has been.

It's unfortunate that the minority has the potential to ruin it for the many - I hope as adults, we can put some of the past behind.

The integration of all QFlink regional operations is an essential step forward into the future planning for this area of the QF business - equally important is the integration of the flight crews for many well-founded reasons.

The proposed QFlink Flight Crew Integration Agreement, as recently tabled within the Qrewroom forum, provides many avenues to smooth out the difficulties faced with all integrations of this nature.
It goes one step further to recognise the "sovereignty" of Impulse flight crew. Clauses relating to this, specifically cater for the perpetual protection of all seniority-based conditions in the area of promotional opportunities, basings, rostering and rec. leave (the list is not exhaustive and is subject to further negotiation) - in essence, the expectations of all those who took the step (and the risk, as it may be interpreted by some) will be unaffected by an integration with the QFlink turboprop group.

It preserves these conditions for all currently-employed and redundant Impulse flight crew ahead of any new turboprop applicant.

The notion of a datal system alongside these specific protective clauses is to enhance the benefits created through unity - it is NOT, nor has ever been done with a predatory view to displace current crew or to remove their present or future employment expectations. The alternative to a datal list would be a bottom-of-the-Impulse-list scenario - an unreasonable, unworkable and provocative situation which will ultimately maintain resentment.

Datal seniority, in the above context, creates no burden on the Impulse pilot group - it is however, a small concession on their part to relieve some of the emotive aspects of integration and take a long term view of the landscape many years into the future.

I urge all Impulse flight crew to consider these aspects earnestly and OBJECTIVELY and not simplify the situation into an "I'm all right Jack - stuff you all" scenario. It deserves greater importance as history has shown.

With Qrewroom access unavailable - I regret publicising this matter here.

G'day Lightitup
I am still trying to figure out how it saves Qantas money by locking the guys onto the Dash to save Qantaswhat you call "Training costs".
Typical shortsighted attitude that lives through aviation in this country which is totally incorrect from a business perspective.
A)Quite a large number of people either have or are considering leaving to get a jet slot with either CX or VB.
Big loss either 25000 for an F/O or Up to 50K for a Capt just for the sim training.
All slots left require retraing at equivalent price when they leave either to the 717 or CX or VB.
B)Numerous peple on the Dash have previoius jet experience and would actually save the company money in both the sim and line training than someone off the street.
Its a much smaller step for a newbie to learn the ropes at 280kts as opposed to 480kts.
Progressive training is a proven winner all over the world as producing better quality product at the output of the training system.
IE. Saving the company money!
C)By taking people off the Dash you know exactly what you are getting in terms of candidate quality.
D)Most importantly the experience these people have is invaluable in ANY day to day operation on any a/c.
Probably the major problem on the 717 at the moment as at VB from CASA's point of view is a very low average for total crew hours which would also be solved by the high levels of experience of these crews.
From anyone's perspective it could only be a positive move to have the combined list and promotion onto the jet available.
It SAVES money and increses average crew experience and keeps everyone happy so whats your problem with that?:cool: :confused:

He's worried someone is going to take his train set away.

Casa did an audit on hours on the 717 after our southern counter parts put in a complaint, it was found that the the total average hours far exceed any other jet operator in aussie,so there goes that argument
:cool:

I thought the mis-conception about the total flight hours had been cleared up along time a go. Probably still one of those wifes tales that are still going around.

Let me add that I have no problem with any of the other Qantaslink prop drivers filing in on the 717 at the end of the list. If I were flying the Dash I too would like to try and move on over to the 717.

However I do have a big problem with the current proposal. It protects the pulse drivers seniority in regards to the 717-200, however if there is any other jet type that would possibly be given to Impulse then we go to the end of the list; according to the proposal it then reverts back to Qantaslink seniority.

So basically if the proposal were to go ahead it would ensure that the impulse pilots would fly the 717-200 and only the 717-200 for a very long time. Due to the fact that all Impulse crews would be assigned a seniority number on the date that we were taken over by big brother.

As it stands your not going to get many guys at Impulse to agree to giving up the oppurtunity to fly something bigger and better in the future. Simply put that is exactly what that proposal would like us to agree to by placing the number one guy at Impulse at the end of the Dash 8 seniority list in regards to any other aircraft to be introduced.

:)

From what I understand with the B717 training, the cost is the same whether you have previous jet experience or not. The course is made for beginners. Then there is no saving in training. In fact, there is double training as you will need to be replaced on the DHC8. Upgrading an FO costs money to train, then you have to replace the FO - more money. Triple training in this case.

As I see it, if Qlink get more jets, it is up to them to decide who operates them, and that may be Eastern / Sunstate. Then the boot will be firmly fixed on the other foot.

To those who are thinking of leaving to get a jet slot, GO FOR IT. Enjoy the non-seniority system that VB offers. Experience is everything, even the capt of the Titanic had thousands of hours at sea.

Live long and prosper.

Recognition of Impulse seniority was never in question or placed in jeopardy by the Integration Agreement.

Pre-existing Impulse seniority and start date will be retained and recorded on any integrated seniority list, as will a company "IMP" designator, enabling recognition of status and the protective clauses to be recognised and applied.

Simply, if you started with Impulse in 1990, then so shall that date be recorded on the Integrated seniority list and the crewmember will earn a seniority position according to THIS date, not the QF date of purchase.
As Impulse seniority information is unavailable, an integrated list sample cannot be produced. This sample list would plainly illustrate the principle.

Regardless of seniority position on the integrated list, Impulse crews will retain all pre-existing rights ahead of all QFlink turboprop flight crew, ie. the most junior Impulse flight crew member with only 18 months total service say, will continue to retain all privileges existing prior to integration and ahead of the most senior QFlink turboprop crew.

I repeat the earlier statement - integration with Impulse is not to undertake predatory action and displacement - it is to foster unity in what has the potential to be a much closer working relationship through the common Qantaslink branding, it removes the likelihood of placement at the bottom of either one's list - the best of all solutions.

To answer the query on new type equipment, in the context of new jet equipment this has not been addressed specifically, however example clauses relate to circumstances where new equipment replaces old and this shall not create advantage through seniority, the principle of company seniority over Qantaslink seniority will prevail.

Guys
As several people have already said QF's primary goal is and has always been to play one side off against the other.It has worked perfectly over the years and continue's to work.
My point over the experience levels is simply that there are a lot of experienced drivers out there why not take advantage of them as oppossed to ignoring them.
The only way that we can protect all of us is through an integrated list based on seniority.It has its downfalls as do most suggestions but it is the only one which is fair to all.
We must be prepared to stand together against QF in the future as you never know what is around the corner for any of us.
As for the 1900 drivers who are know out of work why are the 717 drivers not pushing for them to go onto the Dash.Its a start and gets those guys working again.
I know Eastern have 8 guys in the sim and another 10 about to start engineering but we have heard of no murmours from anyone as to why these guys have not been given,offered spots.Why?
If we do not get together then all of our respective conditions will gradually(or rapidly) be eroded by management which revolves solely around the bottom line and there own self interest.
If we do not get it together then ALL our fates are sealed by our own short sightedness.
At the end of the day its not what we fly but,"That we fly".

Ram,
i think that because the 1900 drivers that were made redundant have a right to reemployment at airconex for a number of years and are not willing to give up their right onto a jet by joining either sunnies or eastern.

Spin Out,

That is probably true, I know if I was in the same situation I wouldn't give that right away.

What should have been done was give the 1900 drivers the option to be seconded to one of the other Q regionals, after all they have the same skills that are touted as the basis for justification for Q regionals to be given consideration into the 717.
Those guy's would then return to the pulse at the seniority position they hold and continue their employment on the jet.

The Evil Emp have already made a bandaid approach with secondment with the 146 pilots so the precedent is there to do the same to protect the turbo drivers in the pulse, whadda ya reckkon?

A bit like haveing your cake and eating it too i'd say.......

If, as i understand it, the intergration agreement was in place before the 1900 pilots were made redundant they would have had a Qantaslink number as well as their imp number so they would have been able to get a slot in qantaslink where ever.
essio2 is that the way you se it...

It would have also saved a lot of hart ake in southern...

Ramjet, the best we could get from our pushes to get a dash drive is a promise of an interview and several haven't even got that. those that have had an interview have been offered nothing (do we feel triple shafted you bet) and now as we are not enjoying unemployed we talk integration, the upside for us has already been lost

Spinout, if we go to a dash job now(back that out as dreaming) under the current system we WILL be re-employed back onto the jet, probably the reason for the above. Understandable you probably think from Sunnies and Easterns prospective not to employ us but remember we do not know how long re-employment will take

essio2, stumbling block as mentioned will be our lack of opportunity if 717-200 are replaced or upgraded to bigger equip (as I read the proposal).

At the end of the day all I have to say if you want/need our support how about getting management to throw 30 odd blokes a bone(job).

I'm with you, Zed.

One of the hardest things for the ex-B1900 pilots is the fact that no b*****d in GA or any other part of flying wants to touch them because they're just "going to quit in a few months and go to the 717." Well that would be great if it were true, but the truth is that no one from Qantas is saying when (or even if) there will ever be enough jets to pick all the pilots back off the street. It could be THREE YEARS, (or even NEVER!!!!!) Whether or not a guaranteed jet slot is on offer, 3 years out of flying is a bloody long time.

A logical, common-sense approach would have QF mainline and/or regionals recognise the extent to which they shafted all 33 1900 people and offer them employment on Dash-8s. Christ, even contract employment (much like the courtesy they offered some ex-Ansett Group pilots) would be an attractive option.

It seems that in their never-ending quest for profit, QF management has forgotten that people are just that. PEOPLE. Not a series of 6 digit numbers in a frikking database.

Allegedly.

Yep, it was plain to see that the 1900 drivers were certainly disadvantaged when King Evil from the Empire courted little Gerry over a few beers and then handed the court jester a few mill to go away and leave the airline business to the people who know how to run airlines, maybe make money but don't give a flying zebra about the people that cut the coal from the coal face.

Exit left, 1900 pilots.

I don't know whether the pulse has a pilot council or whether you have anyone to represent you (come to think of it neither do we......) but there would appear to be some merit still in getting all the parties together to sort through this one.

I know I will get the "bloo8y impulse should be lucky they have jobs" garbage but the point is pilots are people and they all should have the same common goal, the same oportunities and the same support from their peers and colleages, but all I see is a concerted effort to devide and destroy the possibilities that can be explored.

Leave the axe grinding behind and find a way to beat the morons in high places!

To start with I am not associated with Qantas, EAA, SAA,SSA or Impulse, just an outsider looking in.

Yes the Evil Empire has done a job on the 3 original regionals (EAA, SAA and SSA), but this has occured over many years and not since May last year when Qantas took control of Impulse. From what I've read and seen Qantas had been playing EAA, SAA and SSA against each other for years. They (Qantas) have been 'carrot dangling' new larger/jet aircraft to EAA, SAA and SSA since the mid-90s, to see pay each regional was willing to except.
And then out of the blue Qantas grab Impulse and it's a new ball game. In grabbing Impulse, Qantas achieved two things, they removed one of the competition and secondly gained a regional airline operating jet equipment that suits the leisure markets. And although the Impulse pilots have gained far better pay and conditions, they are a less than what the pilot groups of EAA,SAA and SSA would except if Qantas had given them the 717s. There is no point in blaming the Impulse pilots for what happened, Qantas made a business decision

Instead of trying to gain slots on the 717 the pilot groups at EAA, SAA and SSA should work together and look at the future. Think back 10-12 years ago, and look at what types of aircraft each of these regionals were operating. EAA had E110s, J31s and Dash 8s. SAA had C404s,Shorts 360 ? and Dash 8s. SSA had DHC6s, Shorts 330/360s and Dash 8s. So now what are these airlines operating, all Dash 8s plus 3 BA146s (at least for a few more months). So in 10 years these airlines have gone from operating large fleets of 19 seat or less aircraft to large fleets of 36-50 seat aircraft. 10 years ago the travelling public was happy to fly around in these smaller aircraft but now in 2002 they expect more and now the travelling public when flying Qantas are flying on 36-50 seat aircraft. So want will the travelling public expect in 5-10 years time, they will expect what those in the USA are getting now 'Regional Jets'. The first generation of RJ's are almost 10 years old now and with the introduction of the larger 70 seat aircraft starting to take place, many of the smaller 50 seat aircraft are entering the used aircraft market and the price of these aircraft is dropping. In 5 years time you will be able to buy a second hand ERJ-145 for the same price (if not less) than a Dash 8-300. In 5-10 years time the Qantaslink turboprop operation (Dash 8s) will expand to include a 50 seat RJ operation. Markets such as SY-CH, SY-BNA, SY -TW, SY-WG, SY-AY, SY-DU, BN-NTL, BN-GLA, BN-EMD, BN-LRE, ML-MIA,ML-DPO etc are routes that in 5-10 years could be operated by RJs. At a guess the average age of most of the Dash 8 pilots within Qantaslink would be 30-35. So if all the pilot groups work together they will get the chance to fly jet equipment.

I too work at the pulse, hence the sarcastic remark on the other thread re intergration huge I was joking...take your blood pressure pills!!!
I have reviewed the propsal and I along with more than light it up would agree to acknowledge, have differing views to him.
go ahead the phase 1's.....you idiot go back to the 1900....loser.
DO NOTjudge the impulse view on this caught in the past phase one idiot. No wonder impulse is considered lucky, fools like you drag us into the mud.:mad:

Hey Flyswat, are you serious? if you are I don't think many pulse boys and girls agree with you.

Lightitup, is right on the money.

Having a dig at one of your own? Where do you get off on that?

RE: your last post - say again all after "I have reviewed the prop(o)sal..." :confused: :confused: :confused:

Redeployment of the B1900 drivers into the Dash 8 fleet, is a difficult issue and one which I'm sure has been examined thoroughly.

To repeat what may have already been said - while such a decision rests with management alone, it is conceivable that 2 obstacles exist prohibiting the option - an unquestionable loss of training investment when eventual expansion recalls redundant flight crew; the potential industrial issue of Impulse flight crew enjoying non-reciprocal employment rights (until mutual Agreements are formulated). Hypothetically, if a Dash 8 crewmember is made redundant, would he currently be entitled to the first available B717 F/O position? Many SAA pilots face that very situation equally with no reciprocal rights - it is a complex argument which will have no solution until a formal policy is put in place, dare I say it, by closer co-operation of all Qantaslink flight crew.

To reflect on the concerns of redundant B1900 crew - I'm confident that your futures with Impulse are assured and well within the 3 year guarantee period - stay positive.

I hope that any other concerns in relation to the proposed Agreement are constructively addressed to the IPC negotiating team for future resolution.

bentandtwisted and ESS102, "2 thumbs up" for the most informative look into this issue. Your predictions of the future are just as likely as any of the "slit your wrists" variety. Alot of mud gets thrown around on these forums, so I just had to make it a point to say thanks.

flyswat - re your last post....

I can't make sense of what you are trying to say - were you pi$$ed at the time ???:confused:

BAH Humbug.......forget it. If he is at the pulse he'll know what I mean.
Having a go at one of our own? I thought I was allowed to sport an opinion? maybe I'm on the communist pprune?:cool:

Well what can one say... It would appear that I stand corrected. My esteemed colleague Won Tok has shown me the light...

I had no idea that everyone at the pulse was so keen on intergration.

You would be the first in the company to be for the proposal.

Kinda makes it hard to believe that you do work the pulse...

And if you do we really should start talking to who does the hiring....:p

Hey Flyswat, yes everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you want to write someting like that, how about putting your post on Qrewroom. If you want call one of your fellow workers(if that is what you are!), a loser then do it then do it properly!:)

Wednesday September 25, 12:16 PM

Qantas/Fleet Upgrade -2: Speaking To Reporters
SYDNEY (Dow Jones)--Qantas Airways Ltd. (A.QAN) chief executive Geoff Dixon said Wednesday that the national carrier will make a decision on the upgrade of its domestic regional operation QantasLink early next year.

But Dixon, speaking to reporters after a luncheon address to the Australia-Israeli Chamber of Commerce, had no comment when asked about the progress of a A$4.20 a share offer to retail investors that closes Friday and has been forecast to raise A$200 million. Institutional investors recently subscribed for A$600 million at this price.

With concerns about another Gulf War and higher fuel prices, the stock has slumped to a current low of A$3.72.

In his speech, Dixon said Qantas is also considering spending more money to upgrade its Australian regional operations.

"One of the next important decisions that Qantas will face is a possible A$2 billion re-equipment of the QantasLink fleet over the next 10 years to sustain and grow regional services," he said.

-By Lilly Vitorovich; Dow Jones Newswires;

61-2-8235-2963; [email protected]

Light it up - Hey I agree with everything you said, I am in no way for intergration as I can not see the benefits for the pulse.

I may have misunderstood flyswats post - not too hard to do. I just don't think he should be ditching on 1900 Drivers!

A side line approach I think would be prudent to see what comes of the intergration proposal for the pulse.

ESSI02 - Wasn't the command from the top, integration for EAA and SAA only? Why would Impulse want integration? Why would Qantas want integration?

Impulse have an excellent pilot culture and considering integration assures all other QF regional pilots progression to 717's should they choose, Impluse may not desire some of these militant types on the flight deck. ie bypassing the selection process.

firstly I was not ditching on 1900 pilots.
That was the first mis-conception.
second, I was merely showing my contempt for a fellow workers narrow minded view.
But who really cares anyway...we are after all only shootin the sh!t, I mean lets face it as if the evil empire are going to allow this. Surely this would undermine the fact that impulse are QF's leg into the low cost structure that would continue to fatten the pockets of the exec's.
I think that a bigger bat might be better for all as we march into the future.
I hope this clears up my previous post.

I guess it just goes to show never burn your bridges. Just be happy with the dash 8 and get on with life and the job.

I'm allright, Jack.
 

Looks like we're heading down that path.

Hypothetically, I wonder how certain individuals on this thread would feel if they found out that there were no more B-XYZ's coming to Australia, and that the Evil Empire decided that the way of the future was EMB170's and they were going to ABC airlines (neither of the current jet operators)?

Pity, because if an integration deal had been stitched up, it may have had benefits for the whole group, not just ABC's pilot group.

You lot have a lot to learn. ESSI02 is a lot closer to the action than you know, and speaks a lot of sense.

I'm allright Jack :D

Integration by nature has the potential to introduce benefits and disadvantages for both management and flight crews, the scope is vast and the 'greys' initially overrun the 'black-and-whites'. The resolution rests within the ability to find optimal middle ground and balancing the pros and cons around this generic focal point.
Negotiations so far have addressed the perceived inequity by placing current Impulse flight crew ahead of all other Qantaslink flight crew in their rights and privileges permanently.

Despite this, there's been a lot of expressions of "nothing in it for us" sentiment and "what if we get something bigger". As already stated, the problem with that view is that you're unable to know or measure exactly how much better or worse off you will be without the venerable crystal ball.

A perfect example: much of the debate has been focussed on the "what-if's" of a larger aircraft down the track - how do you now feel about the handling of a smaller aircraft introduction? Should Impulse crews be excluded from this potential opportunity, in compliance with their own set of conditions?

The passing of a day, a news report concerning regional expenditure and the potential future career landscape changes once again.

A single group of Qantaslink flight crew from which to draw resource, paralleling the single group of mainline flight crew, will reasonably address most potential future difficulties.

Some comment has been passed on management's willingness to adopt such a view. Discussions such as these are certainly undertaken at a higher level than this forum and should remain so. Here too however, the advantages must outweigh the disadvantages and a case can be made in support of this.

Company culture, work ethic, militancy?
I'd suggest that a turboprop flight crew member, stagnant in their career opportunities and restricted in income-earning capacity, yet conversant with company procedures, would prove to be a compliant and self-satisfied employee in the long term and a perfect candidate - by contrast, a remarkable upward-moving career path earns small merit to the individual as a true test of the virtues of a devoted employee.
Militant, a convenient and unfounded description, if the facts are examined.

essio2, reference the type of future aircraft it is not really a case of introduction of bigger jets, the big problem is that if there was a change of type operated current pulse drivers will be relegated to the back of the line. Like it or not Impulse is the current and most likely future jet operator and therefore we (I) would rather see some jet protection not just B717 protection and than I would start thinking integration might be worthwhile. As far as if new jets go to company abc we would be just as screwed if integration went ahead or not.