QantasLink Seniority
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QantasLink Seniority
Who's heard that EAA SAA and Sunnies are making a proposal for a joint Qantaslink seniority system to include impulse to try to get progression on to a jet! Who's brain child was this? Would the evil empire entertain the thought of it? Any ideas kids?
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Most have seen the proposal now and as it stands no one at Impulse are going to back it. I would also think that big brother would be dead set against it.
Most ammusing however that only six months a go they were calling us scabs and a bunch of other names not worth mentioning, and now they would sell their own children to get a ride...
Most ammusing however that only six months a go they were calling us scabs and a bunch of other names not worth mentioning, and now they would sell their own children to get a ride...
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6 months ago I NEVER called impulse scabs. The people there have been very fortunate. Put yourself in the seats of the blokes who have been there at Eastern for twenty + yrs and the opposition up until 18 months ago now flies the very aircraft that rightly or wrongly they thought they morally had a frair shot at.
Look at the industry over the last year and how many sections of the industry have had to eat humble pie before shooting your mouthoff. You may soon be sitting to the right side of one of these professionals you moron!!!!!!!!!!!1
I do apologise for the words "humble pie." I should have used "extremely bad run" Cheers
Look at the industry over the last year and how many sections of the industry have had to eat humble pie before shooting your mouthoff. You may soon be sitting to the right side of one of these professionals you moron!!!!!!!!!!!1
I do apologise for the words "humble pie." I should have used "extremely bad run" Cheers
Last edited by wawoftam; 27th Sep 2002 at 21:33.
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Yep, what goes around comes around.
Look at the list;
1. Eastern and Southern have been slagging each other for.... ever.
They are now the same company, hmm that could be difficult, but threr is signs of the hatchet being buried and I don't mean in each others heads
2. All regionals have been slagging NJS for.......... ever.
They are now the operator of the 146's that Southern had, hmmm that could be difficult, still some way to go but the Southern guy's have a lot more respect for the NJS pilots seeing the crap that they are enduring from the Evil Empire, ie CB and now Rocky.
3. Every one has slagged Impulse for .......ever.
They were lucky to be picked up by the Evil Empire, but then again they just discarded the 1900 drivers.
Soooo... it isn't productive, it isn't smart to sit there and shoot your mouths off, sure all pilots are egotistical and selfish but have a look at the big picture it will all turn in the end and yes, you don't know who the "proffessional" will be in the seat next to you in the future.
Look at the list;
1. Eastern and Southern have been slagging each other for.... ever.
They are now the same company, hmm that could be difficult, but threr is signs of the hatchet being buried and I don't mean in each others heads
2. All regionals have been slagging NJS for.......... ever.
They are now the operator of the 146's that Southern had, hmmm that could be difficult, still some way to go but the Southern guy's have a lot more respect for the NJS pilots seeing the crap that they are enduring from the Evil Empire, ie CB and now Rocky.
3. Every one has slagged Impulse for .......ever.
They were lucky to be picked up by the Evil Empire, but then again they just discarded the 1900 drivers.
Soooo... it isn't productive, it isn't smart to sit there and shoot your mouths off, sure all pilots are egotistical and selfish but have a look at the big picture it will all turn in the end and yes, you don't know who the "proffessional" will be in the seat next to you in the future.
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Unfortunately Wawoftam it is people like you that have and will continue to give your fellow work mates a bad name. More to the point why no one at the pulse would want to see an intergrated seniority list.
If you so desperately want to get off your Dash 8 why not go an apply like everyone else has instead of trying to score a free ride.
I can tell you now there are a lot of jet jockeys out there looking for work which the pulse would no doubt snap up when the need is there.
The only people to gain anything from the intergration proposal is basically the Dash drivers. There is nothing in it for the pulse; infact it with out a doubt takes away some of the advantages that we current may have. As for big brother it will only increase their training cost, so for them to support it would be crazy.
Best of luck....
If you so desperately want to get off your Dash 8 why not go an apply like everyone else has instead of trying to score a free ride.
I can tell you now there are a lot of jet jockeys out there looking for work which the pulse would no doubt snap up when the need is there.
The only people to gain anything from the intergration proposal is basically the Dash drivers. There is nothing in it for the pulse; infact it with out a doubt takes away some of the advantages that we current may have. As for big brother it will only increase their training cost, so for them to support it would be crazy.
Best of luck....
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Wow, that has got to be the most affirmative statement I have heard, "eat humble pie" sport, you should have a look at your own attitude and tell me is it any different, doesn't look like it!
As I said pilots are selfish sons of bithches, by the way how is .............?
By the way I haven't any desire to apply or work with your company as good as you say it is, each to their own just remember not every one wants the same things, and if you perceive there is a move to "infiltrate" the pulse wake up its not the case. Not all pilots are the same and surprisingly enough it's a few tossers that make it hard for all, don't become one.
As I said pilots are selfish sons of bithches, by the way how is .............?
By the way I haven't any desire to apply or work with your company as good as you say it is, each to their own just remember not every one wants the same things, and if you perceive there is a move to "infiltrate" the pulse wake up its not the case. Not all pilots are the same and surprisingly enough it's a few tossers that make it hard for all, don't become one.
Last edited by CAYNINE; 20th Sep 2002 at 01:21.
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Guys
Just remember with a long time Eastern boss now running the Jet show and probably soon Qantaslink show you may find Dash drivers in that right hand seat of the jet sooner than you think.
As they say
I'd rather be lucky than good anyday!!
Just remember with a long time Eastern boss now running the Jet show and probably soon Qantaslink show you may find Dash drivers in that right hand seat of the jet sooner than you think.
As they say
I'd rather be lucky than good anyday!!
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It seems that the bigger the machinery, the bigger the attittude.
Does size really matter???
Never get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life...Get off the @#$% 'puter and go for a SURF MAN!!!!!
ie. take a chill pill. What goes around does come around, and there are many ex Ansett guys out there who will find it difficult to get a job on the little red rover (and that might not be the end) - so lets not get in a tit for tat situation where we have to watch our backs for the rest of our careers. Enjoy the short time we have in this world.
Live long and prosper
Laz
Does size really matter???
Never get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life...Get off the @#$% 'puter and go for a SURF MAN!!!!!
ie. take a chill pill. What goes around does come around, and there are many ex Ansett guys out there who will find it difficult to get a job on the little red rover (and that might not be the end) - so lets not get in a tit for tat situation where we have to watch our backs for the rest of our careers. Enjoy the short time we have in this world.
Live long and prosper
Laz
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Everyone needs to remember that the reason all the bickering happens is that Qantas plays one group off the next and whoever sucks up the most is in favour at the time.
The sooner all the groups are together the better for all, and qantas will no longer be able to play their game.
As for Impulse being part of it all, someone else summed it up when they said the GM of Impulse is in favour of it, and always has been.
The sooner all the groups are together the better for all, and qantas will no longer be able to play their game.
As for Impulse being part of it all, someone else summed it up when they said the GM of Impulse is in favour of it, and always has been.
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It's unfortunate that the minority has the potential to ruin it for the many - I hope as adults, we can put some of the past behind.
The integration of all QFlink regional operations is an essential step forward into the future planning for this area of the QF business - equally important is the integration of the flight crews for many well-founded reasons.
The proposed QFlink Flight Crew Integration Agreement, as recently tabled within the Qrewroom forum, provides many avenues to smooth out the difficulties faced with all integrations of this nature.
It goes one step further to recognise the "sovereignty" of Impulse flight crew. Clauses relating to this, specifically cater for the perpetual protection of all seniority-based conditions in the area of promotional opportunities, basings, rostering and rec. leave (the list is not exhaustive and is subject to further negotiation) - in essence, the expectations of all those who took the step (and the risk, as it may be interpreted by some) will be unaffected by an integration with the QFlink turboprop group.
It preserves these conditions for all currently-employed and redundant Impulse flight crew ahead of any new turboprop applicant.
The notion of a datal system alongside these specific protective clauses is to enhance the benefits created through unity - it is NOT, nor has ever been done with a predatory view to displace current crew or to remove their present or future employment expectations. The alternative to a datal list would be a bottom-of-the-Impulse-list scenario - an unreasonable, unworkable and provocative situation which will ultimately maintain resentment.
Datal seniority, in the above context, creates no burden on the Impulse pilot group - it is however, a small concession on their part to relieve some of the emotive aspects of integration and take a long term view of the landscape many years into the future.
I urge all Impulse flight crew to consider these aspects earnestly and OBJECTIVELY and not simplify the situation into an "I'm all right Jack - stuff you all" scenario. It deserves greater importance as history has shown.
With Qrewroom access unavailable - I regret publicising this matter here.
The integration of all QFlink regional operations is an essential step forward into the future planning for this area of the QF business - equally important is the integration of the flight crews for many well-founded reasons.
The proposed QFlink Flight Crew Integration Agreement, as recently tabled within the Qrewroom forum, provides many avenues to smooth out the difficulties faced with all integrations of this nature.
It goes one step further to recognise the "sovereignty" of Impulse flight crew. Clauses relating to this, specifically cater for the perpetual protection of all seniority-based conditions in the area of promotional opportunities, basings, rostering and rec. leave (the list is not exhaustive and is subject to further negotiation) - in essence, the expectations of all those who took the step (and the risk, as it may be interpreted by some) will be unaffected by an integration with the QFlink turboprop group.
It preserves these conditions for all currently-employed and redundant Impulse flight crew ahead of any new turboprop applicant.
The notion of a datal system alongside these specific protective clauses is to enhance the benefits created through unity - it is NOT, nor has ever been done with a predatory view to displace current crew or to remove their present or future employment expectations. The alternative to a datal list would be a bottom-of-the-Impulse-list scenario - an unreasonable, unworkable and provocative situation which will ultimately maintain resentment.
Datal seniority, in the above context, creates no burden on the Impulse pilot group - it is however, a small concession on their part to relieve some of the emotive aspects of integration and take a long term view of the landscape many years into the future.
I urge all Impulse flight crew to consider these aspects earnestly and OBJECTIVELY and not simplify the situation into an "I'm all right Jack - stuff you all" scenario. It deserves greater importance as history has shown.
With Qrewroom access unavailable - I regret publicising this matter here.
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G'day Lightitup
I am still trying to figure out how it saves Qantas money by locking the guys onto the Dash to save Qantaswhat you call "Training costs".
Typical shortsighted attitude that lives through aviation in this country which is totally incorrect from a business perspective.
A)Quite a large number of people either have or are considering leaving to get a jet slot with either CX or VB.
Big loss either 25000 for an F/O or Up to 50K for a Capt just for the sim training.
All slots left require retraing at equivalent price when they leave either to the 717 or CX or VB.
B)Numerous peple on the Dash have previoius jet experience and would actually save the company money in both the sim and line training than someone off the street.
Its a much smaller step for a newbie to learn the ropes at 280kts as opposed to 480kts.
Progressive training is a proven winner all over the world as producing better quality product at the output of the training system.
IE. Saving the company money!
C)By taking people off the Dash you know exactly what you are getting in terms of candidate quality.
D)Most importantly the experience these people have is invaluable in ANY day to day operation on any a/c.
Probably the major problem on the 717 at the moment as at VB from CASA's point of view is a very low average for total crew hours which would also be solved by the high levels of experience of these crews.
From anyone's perspective it could only be a positive move to have the combined list and promotion onto the jet available.
It SAVES money and increses average crew experience and keeps everyone happy so whats your problem with that? 
I am still trying to figure out how it saves Qantas money by locking the guys onto the Dash to save Qantaswhat you call "Training costs".
Typical shortsighted attitude that lives through aviation in this country which is totally incorrect from a business perspective.
A)Quite a large number of people either have or are considering leaving to get a jet slot with either CX or VB.
Big loss either 25000 for an F/O or Up to 50K for a Capt just for the sim training.
All slots left require retraing at equivalent price when they leave either to the 717 or CX or VB.
B)Numerous peple on the Dash have previoius jet experience and would actually save the company money in both the sim and line training than someone off the street.
Its a much smaller step for a newbie to learn the ropes at 280kts as opposed to 480kts.
Progressive training is a proven winner all over the world as producing better quality product at the output of the training system.
IE. Saving the company money!
C)By taking people off the Dash you know exactly what you are getting in terms of candidate quality.
D)Most importantly the experience these people have is invaluable in ANY day to day operation on any a/c.
Probably the major problem on the 717 at the moment as at VB from CASA's point of view is a very low average for total crew hours which would also be solved by the high levels of experience of these crews.
From anyone's perspective it could only be a positive move to have the combined list and promotion onto the jet available.
It SAVES money and increses average crew experience and keeps everyone happy so whats your problem with that?
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Casa did an audit on hours on the 717 after our southern counter parts put in a complaint, it was found that the the total average hours far exceed any other jet operator in aussie,so there goes that argument
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I thought the mis-conception about the total flight hours had been cleared up along time a go. Probably still one of those wifes tales that are still going around.
Let me add that I have no problem with any of the other Qantaslink prop drivers filing in on the 717 at the end of the list. If I were flying the Dash I too would like to try and move on over to the 717.
However I do have a big problem with the current proposal. It protects the pulse drivers seniority in regards to the 717-200, however if there is any other jet type that would possibly be given to Impulse then we go to the end of the list; according to the proposal it then reverts back to Qantaslink seniority.
So basically if the proposal were to go ahead it would ensure that the impulse pilots would fly the 717-200 and only the 717-200 for a very long time. Due to the fact that all Impulse crews would be assigned a seniority number on the date that we were taken over by big brother.
As it stands your not going to get many guys at Impulse to agree to giving up the oppurtunity to fly something bigger and better in the future. Simply put that is exactly what that proposal would like us to agree to by placing the number one guy at Impulse at the end of the Dash 8 seniority list in regards to any other aircraft to be introduced.
Let me add that I have no problem with any of the other Qantaslink prop drivers filing in on the 717 at the end of the list. If I were flying the Dash I too would like to try and move on over to the 717.
However I do have a big problem with the current proposal. It protects the pulse drivers seniority in regards to the 717-200, however if there is any other jet type that would possibly be given to Impulse then we go to the end of the list; according to the proposal it then reverts back to Qantaslink seniority.
So basically if the proposal were to go ahead it would ensure that the impulse pilots would fly the 717-200 and only the 717-200 for a very long time. Due to the fact that all Impulse crews would be assigned a seniority number on the date that we were taken over by big brother.
As it stands your not going to get many guys at Impulse to agree to giving up the oppurtunity to fly something bigger and better in the future. Simply put that is exactly what that proposal would like us to agree to by placing the number one guy at Impulse at the end of the Dash 8 seniority list in regards to any other aircraft to be introduced.
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From what I understand with the B717 training, the cost is the same whether you have previous jet experience or not. The course is made for beginners. Then there is no saving in training. In fact, there is double training as you will need to be replaced on the DHC8. Upgrading an FO costs money to train, then you have to replace the FO - more money. Triple training in this case.
As I see it, if Qlink get more jets, it is up to them to decide who operates them, and that may be Eastern / Sunstate. Then the boot will be firmly fixed on the other foot.
To those who are thinking of leaving to get a jet slot, GO FOR IT. Enjoy the non-seniority system that VB offers. Experience is everything, even the capt of the Titanic had thousands of hours at sea.
Live long and prosper.
As I see it, if Qlink get more jets, it is up to them to decide who operates them, and that may be Eastern / Sunstate. Then the boot will be firmly fixed on the other foot.
To those who are thinking of leaving to get a jet slot, GO FOR IT. Enjoy the non-seniority system that VB offers. Experience is everything, even the capt of the Titanic had thousands of hours at sea.
Live long and prosper.
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Recognition of Impulse seniority was never in question or placed in jeopardy by the Integration Agreement.
Pre-existing Impulse seniority and start date will be retained and recorded on any integrated seniority list, as will a company "IMP" designator, enabling recognition of status and the protective clauses to be recognised and applied.
Simply, if you started with Impulse in 1990, then so shall that date be recorded on the Integrated seniority list and the crewmember will earn a seniority position according to THIS date, not the QF date of purchase.
As Impulse seniority information is unavailable, an integrated list sample cannot be produced. This sample list would plainly illustrate the principle.
Regardless of seniority position on the integrated list, Impulse crews will retain all pre-existing rights ahead of all QFlink turboprop flight crew, ie. the most junior Impulse flight crew member with only 18 months total service say, will continue to retain all privileges existing prior to integration and ahead of the most senior QFlink turboprop crew.
I repeat the earlier statement - integration with Impulse is not to undertake predatory action and displacement - it is to foster unity in what has the potential to be a much closer working relationship through the common Qantaslink branding, it removes the likelihood of placement at the bottom of either one's list - the best of all solutions.
To answer the query on new type equipment, in the context of new jet equipment this has not been addressed specifically, however example clauses relate to circumstances where new equipment replaces old and this shall not create advantage through seniority, the principle of company seniority over Qantaslink seniority will prevail.
Pre-existing Impulse seniority and start date will be retained and recorded on any integrated seniority list, as will a company "IMP" designator, enabling recognition of status and the protective clauses to be recognised and applied.
Simply, if you started with Impulse in 1990, then so shall that date be recorded on the Integrated seniority list and the crewmember will earn a seniority position according to THIS date, not the QF date of purchase.
As Impulse seniority information is unavailable, an integrated list sample cannot be produced. This sample list would plainly illustrate the principle.
Regardless of seniority position on the integrated list, Impulse crews will retain all pre-existing rights ahead of all QFlink turboprop flight crew, ie. the most junior Impulse flight crew member with only 18 months total service say, will continue to retain all privileges existing prior to integration and ahead of the most senior QFlink turboprop crew.
I repeat the earlier statement - integration with Impulse is not to undertake predatory action and displacement - it is to foster unity in what has the potential to be a much closer working relationship through the common Qantaslink branding, it removes the likelihood of placement at the bottom of either one's list - the best of all solutions.
To answer the query on new type equipment, in the context of new jet equipment this has not been addressed specifically, however example clauses relate to circumstances where new equipment replaces old and this shall not create advantage through seniority, the principle of company seniority over Qantaslink seniority will prevail.
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Guys
As several people have already said QF's primary goal is and has always been to play one side off against the other.It has worked perfectly over the years and continue's to work.
My point over the experience levels is simply that there are a lot of experienced drivers out there why not take advantage of them as oppossed to ignoring them.
The only way that we can protect all of us is through an integrated list based on seniority.It has its downfalls as do most suggestions but it is the only one which is fair to all.
We must be prepared to stand together against QF in the future as you never know what is around the corner for any of us.
As for the 1900 drivers who are know out of work why are the 717 drivers not pushing for them to go onto the Dash.Its a start and gets those guys working again.
I know Eastern have 8 guys in the sim and another 10 about to start engineering but we have heard of no murmours from anyone as to why these guys have not been given,offered spots.Why?
If we do not get together then all of our respective conditions will gradually(or rapidly) be eroded by management which revolves solely around the bottom line and there own self interest.
If we do not get it together then ALL our fates are sealed by our own short sightedness.
At the end of the day its not what we fly but,"That we fly".
As several people have already said QF's primary goal is and has always been to play one side off against the other.It has worked perfectly over the years and continue's to work.
My point over the experience levels is simply that there are a lot of experienced drivers out there why not take advantage of them as oppossed to ignoring them.
The only way that we can protect all of us is through an integrated list based on seniority.It has its downfalls as do most suggestions but it is the only one which is fair to all.
We must be prepared to stand together against QF in the future as you never know what is around the corner for any of us.
As for the 1900 drivers who are know out of work why are the 717 drivers not pushing for them to go onto the Dash.Its a start and gets those guys working again.
I know Eastern have 8 guys in the sim and another 10 about to start engineering but we have heard of no murmours from anyone as to why these guys have not been given,offered spots.Why?
If we do not get together then all of our respective conditions will gradually(or rapidly) be eroded by management which revolves solely around the bottom line and there own self interest.
If we do not get it together then ALL our fates are sealed by our own short sightedness.
At the end of the day its not what we fly but,"That we fly".
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Ram,
i think that because the 1900 drivers that were made redundant have a right to reemployment at airconex for a number of years and are not willing to give up their right onto a jet by joining either sunnies or eastern.
i think that because the 1900 drivers that were made redundant have a right to reemployment at airconex for a number of years and are not willing to give up their right onto a jet by joining either sunnies or eastern.
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Spin Out,
That is probably true, I know if I was in the same situation I wouldn't give that right away.
What should have been done was give the 1900 drivers the option to be seconded to one of the other Q regionals, after all they have the same skills that are touted as the basis for justification for Q regionals to be given consideration into the 717.
Those guy's would then return to the pulse at the seniority position they hold and continue their employment on the jet.
The Evil Emp have already made a bandaid approach with secondment with the 146 pilots so the precedent is there to do the same to protect the turbo drivers in the pulse, whadda ya reckkon?
That is probably true, I know if I was in the same situation I wouldn't give that right away.
What should have been done was give the 1900 drivers the option to be seconded to one of the other Q regionals, after all they have the same skills that are touted as the basis for justification for Q regionals to be given consideration into the 717.
Those guy's would then return to the pulse at the seniority position they hold and continue their employment on the jet.
The Evil Emp have already made a bandaid approach with secondment with the 146 pilots so the precedent is there to do the same to protect the turbo drivers in the pulse, whadda ya reckkon?