Alliance, Bonza or REX
 

If you had a choice what's the better option given that all 3 are jets?

Whichever one offers you the job in the first place of course, then the basing you want, then balancing progression opportunities against eba provisions/pay that suits you.
You won't get all of that anywhere so weigh up whats important to you.

You don't necessarily need a jet job to get those either.

People will split hairs over the differences or cherry pick scenarios to make one operator or another seem better, but aide from basings and progression just about every mainstream jet operator in oz is as good/bad as the next in the big scheme of things.

I’d probably choose Alliance for the job security. Lapon largely covered it all though :).

Got an offer from all 3, in terms of bases choices Alliance is first Bonza second Rex third, pay is almost the same. Time to lefty hand seat is quickest with Bonza.

I’d be going for Alliance. More stable, more certainty.

I thought Alliance were doing DECs?

Agreed tho, I'd probably go Alliance for the reasons mentioned over a new start up all things otherwise being equal. Not to mention you will be living/based where you actually want to be by the sounds of it.

If job security is important I would say Bonza could probably be taken out of the running

Small low cost carriers, startup or not, are prone to strategy, network, base, employee changes at very short notice. It could be as simple as the local council cutting off subsidies or raising fees at a said base, it’s then closed and families are once again pushed to the wall, been there done that. Fuel jumps, generally people are laid off, fleets cut, aircraft re-leased to other parts of the world. You only need to look at how many employees Tiger pissed off over the years by chopping and changing every 5 mins.

Alliance going anywhere. Rex isn’t likely going anywhere, however likely a bit of a circus in the medium term. Unknown what that place will look like in 5 years.

Virgin’s 737 bases are likely the most ‘safe’ however another circus also.

There’s a good chance your choice won’t work out going by the attrition at Alliance. Can you afford to repay a large bond? How much is the bond at Rex and is it pro-rata? I’d go either of the 737 jobs. If Bonza falls over you won’t have to pay back the bond. You’ll get a job at Rex or Virgin.

These jobs aren’t going away so think of them as stepping stones and if you’re lucky maybe one will actually suit longer term.

Don’t go to Alliance as it will become part of the QF group and you will not be able to get a shot at mainline which is still the Aussie dream job !

I doubt it will. That was an AJ dream and was shot down by the ACCC. I don’t think it’s ever coming back.

I agree with morno. If the accc won’t allow QF to simply coordinate schedules with China eastern as it’s deemed “an excuse to raise prices” I’d say the Alliance thing is well and truly over. I doubt it will ever be mentioned again.

for me, I’d go to alliance.

what are the wait times for an interview at alliance? I hear onboarding can take a while

Go Bonza.

Or tell them about each other and see who’s willing to do a deal.

The comment around startups being short lived could raise an interesting possibility. If you're doing a type rating with them, maybe there is a bit of a gamble that if they were to go under, you could end up on the jobs market but with a valuable skillset behind you, one that is much more portable compared to doing a Fokker endorsement.

But yes, there is no objective answer there - you need to consider the factors that are important to you. Do you need/want the security of knowing that you'll have a long-term job with one employer, even if it means not progressing onto bigger and better things for a while? Or do you want to take what may seem a more risky path in the name of progressing quicker? Are you willing to relocate to pursue the opportunity? What is the culture like and how important is that to you? Those are the questions to ask yourself and then use that to get more specific and talk with people who are already flying with those airlines to see which one/s line up.

There's a big difference with the current startups/new owners in the Australian market compared to the budding airlines of past. They are backed by some serious money, Bonza has 777, Rex has PAG, plus it's original investors, Virgin has Bain. Whilst these may be savvy corporate entities that could shut down and break up each airline at a moments notice, they also have the staying power and foresight to keep pumping in capital if they see weakness in any of the competitors for a long haul profit. They would be betting on someone else failing so they can gain serious market share in the Australian domestic market. Any one of those 3 could disappear over night or keep fighting till the cows come home. Alliance is on it's own and was seeking to sell out to QF, what does that say, who knows, are they safe and stable, well, that's a guess at best for any long term bets. In the short term they are doing fine.

I'd take the conditions that offer the best outcome for you and your family, in the long run. Jumping between airlines can cost you seniority and income starting from the bottom each time. Being in a base you don't want to be just for a few extra dollars or a type endorsement can be heavy on the soul and the family. Worrying about whether your airline will be around in 5 years is not worth thinking about, even QF mainline will boot you out in the cold if you are bottom of the seniority list when down times come around, so it's not just about who will go bust.

OK so bond costs don’t seem to be significant to you so what about the writing on the wall? So do any of these three outfits have pilots leaving? If so what makes you different and a stayer? I know guys who’ve left all three and for widely different reasons.

None of them.

Alliance - look at the rate they’re losing E190 crew. They can’t keep any staff, pilots or otherwise. You have to ask yourself why. Also, as a QF subsidiary, you’re putting the final nail in the coffin of any aspirations to mainline. There’s subsidiary pilots who have been on the hold file for 6+ years with no end in sight. You’re ending your mainline career chances by joining any subsidiary.

Bonza - If you like zero job security, go for it. They’re mixing up their routes already trying to find something profitable. I’m not familiar, do you pay for the endorsement and then they pay it back to you by a return of service? What happens to your out of pocket costs when they go tits up?

Rex - They just made a $45m loss in a period of unprecedented travel demand on the back of bargain basement leasing costs. A third of their turboprops are parked up due to lack of parts and crew. You do the math! You’ll work your guts out only to receive communique from the owner than you’re ”spitting in my face”, and “if it’s too hot in the kitchen, then get out!” You know they make their cadet pilots mow lawns, weed the gardens and write “solemn vows” right?

My opinion - wait for mainline to open again next month. They have huge hiring requirements next few years. You can walk straight into a short haul FO slot if you desire, and you’ll earn significantly more as a shorthaul FO than you will with a command at any of the three airlines above.

Play the long, smart game and ignore your shiny jet syndrome.

If a company goes under, I’m
sure I’ve read a Bond is consequently null and void.

In my view the chances of QF being allowed to subsume Alliance any time soon have plunged markedly under the new ACCC chair who seems to mean business with corporations seeking to grow their already large monopolies.

Yep punt around in a King Air till you get a Mainline Next Month.

If he/she was getting mainline next few years - any 3 will be a better pay/experience than a small turbo prop in any other company.

​​​​​​​Alliance is not a Qantas subsidiary. They are publicly listed on the ASX and Qantas owns 19% of their shares.

I have heard that crew are leaving QF group to go to Alliance VA or the states. Says a lot about the Australian dream job! However on the dumb and lazy side does anyone have the Alliance EBA, I can't seem to find it online :ugh:

‘Doesn’t look hard to find https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-sear...ment-relevance

Thanks, I wasn't sure as this will be my first job in Australia.

There are two things to look for if you want a quick upgrade, an expanding company with pilot turnover will get you into the left seat a lot quicker than a mature legacy airline where everyone stays until they retire.

Alliance is more established and you prefer their base, however the type rating is less useful than the other two.

Bonza would be a bit of a gamble as a new start up but if it works out you could be right place at the right time, similar to the pilots who joined Virgin back in the early 2000s got a quick upgrade and are now B737 Captains living in Brisbane.

REX is more established and should be a bit more stable and if you weren’t planning on staying long term would be okay for a few years to build up the hours.

You’re lucky to have three job offers, back in the 1990s you were lucky to get one and had to grab what ever was going. At the end of the day it’s a lotto as to which will have the best outcome. I went overseas in the early 2000s and had three possible employers at the time, I simply took the first one that offered me a job. Luckily it was the right choice as they were taken over by a major airline and I’m much better off than I would have been with either of the others.

Yes time have changed a lot from when i got my CPL, back than you needed 100 moon landings to get a turboprop gig. I have mostly flown overseas after getting my license's, very lucky indeed to be offered 3 jobs within a span of days. Bonza shiny new jets with quick upgrade is very tempting plus shiny new 737 max8 would be nice to fly, the F100 seems like it will be out of service in a few years but good for building jet time from what i hear the crew are making bank atm. REX would be good to build time as well.

They are all old/expired EA’s.

Anyone know what the rosters are like at Alliance?

You won’t find an EA for the ejets as there is none - contract only.
rosters for 28 days will consist of:
8 DDOs, think they can chuck singles in there.
whatever flying they give you
all other days will be max length STBY

Any idea on the number of days they work on the Ejet and F100? HR haven't confirmed a fleet type yet.

So 28 day roster with 8 days off means you work 20 days - either flying or standby.

Thanks, I was more after if crew get called in on standby days and if you got worked to 900hrs a year.

Right now in BNE on the Fokker fleet, you can expect to be called out on every reserve and fly over 900hrs a year. For this, you will make $200k or so, about $70k of this is allowances. Upgrades are happening fast, 1-2 years. They're working on an EBA that will bring the Fokker and E190 fleets in Qld under one umbrella and Alliance proposing to add 2 grey days to the 8 RDOs in a roster (correct me if I'm wrong?).

Thankfully the ACCC chair is an expert in this policy area. However up until the Qantas Group troubles became more public recently they were quietly approaching their resources clients to ask them to put in a good written word and then potentially challenge the ACCC view, perhaps in court. The takeover bid officially expires in December, I don't know how successful Qantas were in getting support from their mining clients and they have bigger legal priorities now anyway.

If I was considering a training bond, I'd take the the 37 any day over the F100.

From another thread “Australian Wages” and talking to the boys

Current Alliance F100/E190 figures are below. Seems negotiations are currently occurring to merge the two fleets into a single contract. F100 crews get RPT bonus on top E190 doesn’t at the moment.

FO Base: $128679
CA Base: $186491

FO Productivity: $210
CPT Productivity: $332

RPT BONUS ( paid each month if you do an RPT flight, always paid apparently)
FO: $578
CPT: $838

According to the crews I know there captains are getting flogged, expect to fly 80-90 hours a month (productivity starts at 55 hours). FOs either just fall short of 55 or just bust it but thee may be outliers. So realistically a Captain on either fleet will be grossing around the $250k mark as a line driver. No idea what pays are like for those in the training department

Alliance. FO Productivity: $210
CPT Productivity: $332 Is that per hour, per day or per sector?

Per flight hour or part thereof.

Bear in mind what you see now and what you will see in a years time SHOULD be different, all airlines have/are recruiting and have a long pipeline of training to complete so crewing SHOULD settle down and pilots gradually getting less flogged in the months to come, this would appear to be the case for all the airlines at present but certainly QF and QQ.

Against this is probably the most volatile pilot market in many decades in Oz with opportunities aplenty for movement for those inclined - but that will change only because it always does, when it will change the big question.

Like it or not QF is the only local prospect who arguably will never go broke or fail as well as the only airline offering "traditional" progress through seniority on types/divisions which is probably attractive to many.
Others more versed in money matters can comment but rumours Bain have already get their money back from VA by loading debt against VA and Bain pocketing the cash, whilst unlikely they could decide tomorrow to close it down/sell up any assets and piss off, they do NOT want to run an airline they care only about $$$ and can be ruthless in how to obtain it (IMHO of course!).

Point being that arguably all the other airlines have the potential to go down (for different reasons and with different degrees of threat), if you factor that and assume jet time will get you another job somewhere (if required) then where you want to live becomes primary consideration, who can provide that opportunity secondary.

Best of luck choosing wisely with the unprecedented current pilot market and opportunities in Oz.
Cheers.