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Take the taser thing up with AFP. Not our issue what they do. They can conduct investigations if they need be.
You don’t follow crew instructions repeatedly, and after many minutes. You are off. I really don’t care how the AFP drag you off, if you don’t simply get up and walk off with them, then they will use whatever means, they know our decision up front is final and have no choice. The issue I have is around following instructions. Don’t get too sidetracked with all the other stuff happening on the side. Jetstar’s ground operations and systems are another matter. An investigation into how the event even came about might be warranted, but at the end of the day, instructions didn’t get followed by the crew. Your off. |
Plenty of people making grandiose pronouncements about what should’ve happened, without really knowing exactly what did happen. Occasionally the aggrieved passenger’s account isn’t necessarily the whole story…
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Wingnut, you missed this bit of my statement- "Obviously there are safety margins which make it safe". It's a bit like if you're carrying a Samoan Rugby team v's a bunch of average Indonesians. Vastly different weights. If the company policy is no seat changes then that's the rule.
I think it's safe to say that we know "weight and balance" is just a crap excuse cabin crew are taught to say in ground school and it works 99% of the time. |
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Sorry but you are all missing the point, the MOMENT a passenger refuses to obey a Cabin Crew instruction they have committed an offence. Now I realise we live in a world where individuals feel they are too ‘special’ to have pesky rules apply to them but it is against the law regardless. He was asked to move, he wouldn’t, he even admits he requested the police presence. Cabin Crew did NOT instruct the cops to use the taser, this idiot obviously wound the police up to the point they felt this was an appropriate use of force. If you side with the passenger then what next, allow people to vape? Sit with no belt on?……. Why should the crew spend time ‘facilitating the move’, there is a reason the terms and conditions say if you want to be seated together then you have to pay the $5 for assigned seating. He ticked that box and then thought he would be cleaver and arrange the reseating himself. Disgusting Jetstar? No, disgusting opening post though. |
Originally Posted by VHOED191006
(Post 11405944)
Yea, 3 hours apart from your family ain't going to be the end of it all. Get up, listen to the crew, sit where you are directed to. There is always a reason why they're asking you to move (even if you've done nothing wrong).
Like that FA who asked a bloke to move because....he was a bloke. Yesirreeee, you can be asked to move seats simply because you are a male. |
Multi culture to blame?
Originally Posted by MagnumPI
(Post 11406240)
It never ceases to amaze me that there are so many pilots and flight crew out there who could (and perhaps have!) successfully manage an emergency in-flight, but apparently can't negotiate or de-escalate a difficult situation with a fellow human being. It indicates a concerning lack of empathy. As an aside - CASA seems to be obsessed with preventing autistic people getting a medical certificate, yet I've met many pilots who I'm nearly certain were somewhere on the spectrum judging by their inability to empathise and read social cues.
If you think that someone being tasered is an appropriate way to resolve a dispute over where someone is seated you should seek help. Obviously it's the AFP that have done the tasering, but the fact that the crew were unable to negotiate with a man that was reportedly not being aggressive or violent says a lot about how little emphasis is placed on customer service training and dispute resolution at Jetstar. I wonder if the Captain or FO went down to have a reasonable discussion with him and to listen to his concerns? Not mentioned in the article. Lets be honest here, a lot of the pilots I have worked with want as little to do with the passengers as possible. I have experienced a growing culture of disregard and lack of empathy in aviation and other industries. Time is money now and that is all that matters in Australia 2023. This culture combines with the government media driven cultures of fear, the new follow orders from the " officials" or else culture and the new import from the usa: if you complain you are an ist / orange man bad person etc etc etc. I enjoyed working with passengers mostly and had patience with them and from what passengers told me it was a rare thing. Could this be a factor in this increasing trend of air rage / airport rage and all the other increasing rage? Discuss.... |
Originally Posted by doublemamba
(Post 11406303)
RtpicaL
Lets be honest here, a lot of the pilots I have worked with want as little to do with the passengers as possible. I have experienced a growing culture of disregard and lack of empathy in aviation and other industries. Time is money now and that is all that matters in Australia 2023. This culture combines with the government media driven cultures of fear, the new follow orders from the " officials" or else culture and the new import from the usa: if you complain you are an ist / orange man bad person etc etc etc. I enjoyed working with passengers mostly and had patience with them and from what passengers told me it was a rare thing. Could this be a factor in this increasing trend of air rage / airport rage and all the other increasing rage? Discuss.... My theory is that people are far less comfortable having difficult conversations and resolving disputes. Anecdotally, I see this all the time in business with people trying to negotiate or resolve disputes over text or email instead of picking up the phone or meeting face to face. Pre-internet you use to complain about a business by writing or calling to speak with someone who (hopefully) cared. These days most people just let loose on a keyboard, and will say things that they'd never otherwise say to a human being! Many pilots may not be particularly charismatic (and perhaps that suits their occupation just fine most of the time) - but you should still be able to hold a discussion with a passenger. Nothing reported on yet about whether or not the CA or FO tried to speak with the passenger before the authorities arrived with a freshly charged taser. I hope one of them tried. |
This bloke did the wrong thing and he got arrested. No one is contesting that.
Travelling with young children is one of the most stressful undertakings as a parent. Some times you don’t think rationally. The reality is that if the Cabin Manger just simply facilitated a seat change then none of this would have happened period. This is not the cabin crews fault. It’s the absolute lack of customer service training that takes place. Train your crews to follow the rules and procedures while taking a compassionate approach! But as we have seen time and time again there is no culpability in the QF group. |
Originally Posted by MagnumPI
(Post 11406305)
Many pilots may not be particularly charismatic (and perhaps that suits their occupation just fine most of the time) - but you should still be able to hold a discussion with a passenger. Nothing reported on yet about whether or not the CA or FO tried to speak with the passenger before the authorities arrived with a freshly charged taser. I hope one of them tried. |
Originally Posted by davidclarke
(Post 11406309)
The reality is that if the Cabin Manger just simply facilitated a seat change then none of this would have happened period.
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You're assuming people are rational actors dr dre, but they're often not. There's always going to be disputes. Of course passengers should follow instructions, but when they don't the crew should have the skills to de-escalate.
As davidclarke posted just above you, there's a common thread in just about all of the publicity concerning QF Group lately - lack of customer service skills, which comes from lack of training, and perhaps a genuine lack of empathy from someone's personality - in which case they should never be hired. It's a good thing that many posters here in the thread aren't hostage negotiators. The hostages would be killed every time! |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 11406313)
Or if the guy just sat where he was supposed to then none of this would've happened. Period.
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We really have no idea exactly what unfolded.
It appears to me that the CC was fairly calm and quiet when she relayed to the pax that they now have reason to offload him. Was she told to relay that after chatting with the Captain? Who knows? Had the gate manager already informed the crew that the pax had been difficult in the terminal? Who knows? Was the person he had swapped with in an emergency exit but unsuitable to be there? Who knows? Whatever the situation leading up to the AFP taking over, the method used to get him off is an AFP issue, not Jetstars. Cabin Crew don’t get paid enough or trained enough to make nuanced decisions around W&B, they are just told that it is of critical importance. At the end of the day he chose to dig his heels in and we’ve all seen the result. |
Originally Posted by MagnumPI
(Post 11406305)
You're probably right.
My theory is that people are far less comfortable having difficult conversations and resolving disputes. Anecdotally, I see this all the time in business with people trying to negotiate or resolve disputes over text or email instead of picking up the phone or meeting face to face. Pre-internet you use to complain about a business by writing or calling to speak with someone who (hopefully) cared. These days most people just let loose on a keyboard, and will say things that they'd never otherwise say to a human being! Many pilots may not be particularly charismatic (and perhaps that suits their occupation just fine most of the time) - but you should still be able to hold a discussion with a passenger. Nothing reported on yet about whether or not the CA or FO tried to speak with the passenger before the authorities arrived with a freshly charged taser. I hope one of them tried. You can see how it can go south if crew get too involved, that Virgin event with the pilot in a punch on with the passenger near the cockpit door wasn’t great. I’ve seen a few videos in the US with Pilots getting on the wrong side of being involved. |
When Michael O'Leary's protégé, one Alan Joyce, took over Qantas he set up Jetstar in the Ryanair mould, complete "no sitting together unless you pay".
That policy caused this and Jetstar's check in contractors and cabin attendants exacerbated it by following the LCC's "customer service doesn't apply here" attitude. So, indirectly, and drawing a long bow, the buck stops at the Irishman's desk. Of course AFP didn't help either |
Originally Posted by Chris2303
(Post 11406359)
When Michael O'Leary's protégé, one Alan Joyce, took over Qantas he set up Jetstar in the Ryanair mould, complete "no sitting together unless you pay".
That policy caused this and Jetstar's check in contractors and cabin attendants exacerbated it by following the LCC's "customer service doesn't apply here" attitude. So, indirectly, and drawing a long bow, the buck stops at the Irishman's desk. Of course AFP didn't help either No, the passenger not following the Cabin Crews instructions caused this. |
No, the passenger not following the Cabin Crews instructions caused this. |
I suggest listen to the longer YouTube version, the AFP officers state the reasons to the passenger in why he is being removed, and the consequences if he does not comply.
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