Take the taser thing up with AFP. Not our issue what they do. They can conduct investigations if they need be.

You don’t follow crew instructions repeatedly, and after many minutes. You are off. I really don’t care how the AFP drag you off, if you don’t simply get up and walk off with them, then they will use whatever means, they know our decision up front is final and have no choice.

The issue I have is around following instructions. Don’t get too sidetracked with all the other stuff happening on the side. Jetstar’s ground operations and systems are another matter. An investigation into how the event even came about might be warranted, but at the end of the day, instructions didn’t get followed by the crew. Your off.

Plenty of people making grandiose pronouncements about what should’ve happened, without really knowing exactly what did happen. Occasionally the aggrieved passenger’s account isn’t necessarily the whole story…

Wingnut, you missed this bit of my statement- "Obviously there are safety margins which make it safe". It's a bit like if you're carrying a Samoan Rugby team v's a bunch of average Indonesians. Vastly different weights. If the company policy is no seat changes then that's the rule.
I think it's safe to say that we know "weight and balance" is just a crap excuse cabin crew are taught to say in ground school and it works 99% of the time.

1. It appears very simple to me. If you want to sit together pay the money and buy tickets/seats next to each other.
2. follow crew instructions
3. If you choose not to follow instructions expect consequences.
   

“bye , thanks for coming”

Difficult to know what to make of it all without knowing what directives/rules the CC operate under regarding seat swaps. Boarded a aircraft in Doha and on fishing in the seat pocket for the briefing card found my hand swimming in someones vomit, stench appalling, seating was found elsewhere for the three of we family which had us scattered all over the aircraft. Boarded in LAX for a trans Pacific on United and was asked if I'd mind swapping seats so two folk could sit with each other. Don't know if they still do it but boarding a DC-9 in Hawaii it was a free for all, no assigned seating. Boarded a QF at Tulla for a trans Pacific and name didn't appear on the manifest, told to "just sit over there". Stuff happens.

Disgusting Jetstar? No, disgusting opening post though.

Riiighhhhtt....

Like that FA who asked a bloke to move because....he was a bloke. Yesirreeee, you can be asked to move seats simply because you are a male.

Multi culture to blame?
 

RtpicaL

Lets be honest here, a lot of the pilots I have worked with want as little to do with the passengers as possible.

I have experienced a growing culture of disregard and lack of empathy in aviation and other industries. Time is money now and that is all that matters in Australia 2023.

This culture combines with the government media driven cultures of fear, the new follow orders from the " officials" or else culture and the new import from the usa: if you complain you are an ist / orange man bad person etc etc etc.

I enjoyed working with passengers mostly and had patience with them and from what passengers told me it was a rare thing.
Could this be a factor in this increasing trend of air rage / airport rage and all the other increasing rage?

Discuss....

You're probably right.

My theory is that people are far less comfortable having difficult conversations and resolving disputes. Anecdotally, I see this all the time in business with people trying to negotiate or resolve disputes over text or email instead of picking up the phone or meeting face to face. Pre-internet you use to complain about a business by writing or calling to speak with someone who (hopefully) cared. These days most people just let loose on a keyboard, and will say things that they'd never otherwise say to a human being!

Many pilots may not be particularly charismatic (and perhaps that suits their occupation just fine most of the time) - but you should still be able to hold a discussion with a passenger.

Nothing reported on yet about whether or not the CA or FO tried to speak with the passenger before the authorities arrived with a freshly charged taser. I hope one of them tried.

This bloke did the wrong thing and he got arrested. No one is contesting that.

Travelling with young children is one of the most stressful undertakings as a parent. Some times you don’t think rationally.

The reality is that if the Cabin Manger just simply facilitated a seat change then none of this would have happened period.


This is not the cabin crews fault. It’s the absolute lack of customer service training that takes place. Train your crews to follow the rules and procedures while taking a compassionate approach! But as we have seen time and time again there is no culpability in the QF group.

Looking at it from another perspective. Passengers need to follow cabin crew instructions. If they aren't going to do it on the ground then they probably won't do it inflight, therefore they should be removed from the flight before it gets airborne and the problem becomes a lot harder to solve. A pilot can't keep going back into the cabin during the flight to tell an unruly passenger to behave, if they won't listen to CC on the ground then that's reason enough to remove them.

Or if the guy just sat where he was supposed to then none of this would've happened. Period.

You're assuming people are rational actors dr dre, but they're often not. There's always going to be disputes. Of course passengers should follow instructions, but when they don't the crew should have the skills to de-escalate.

As davidclarke posted just above you, there's a common thread in just about all of the publicity concerning QF Group lately - lack of customer service skills, which comes from lack of training, and perhaps a genuine lack of empathy from someone's personality - in which case they should never be hired.

It's a good thing that many posters here in the thread aren't hostage negotiators. The hostages would be killed every time!

I just trying to show that the situation could have been diffused quickly quietly and none of this would needed to have taken place. Period.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7d7e658e3.jpeg
For sure nobody would want this.

We really have no idea exactly what unfolded.
It appears to me that the CC was fairly calm and quiet when she relayed to the pax that they now have reason to offload him. Was she told to relay that after chatting with the Captain? Who knows? Had the gate manager already informed the crew that the pax had been difficult in the terminal? Who knows? Was the person he had swapped with in an emergency exit but unsuitable to be there? Who knows?
Whatever the situation leading up to the AFP taking over, the method used to get him off is an AFP issue, not Jetstars.
Cabin Crew don’t get paid enough or trained enough to make nuanced decisions around W&B, they are just told that it is of critical importance. At the end of the day he chose to dig his heels in and we’ve all seen the result.

Everyone has different ways in approaching passengers communication. I don’t speak to passengers (unless medical), generally it goes nowhere. Either they follow my crews instruction, or they are off. It’s that simple. I get the crew to give them the go or no go question, generally they won’t answer, so they are off. I then close the cockpit door and the AFP can do whatever they wish.

You can see how it can go south if crew get too involved, that Virgin event with the pilot in a punch on with the passenger near the cockpit door wasn’t great. I’ve seen a few videos in the US with Pilots getting on the wrong side of being involved.

When Michael O'Leary's protégé, one Alan Joyce, took over Qantas he set up Jetstar in the Ryanair mould, complete "no sitting together unless you pay".

That policy caused this and Jetstar's check in contractors and cabin attendants exacerbated it by following the LCC's "customer service doesn't apply here" attitude.

So, indirectly, and drawing a long bow, the buck stops at the Irishman's desk. Of course AFP didn't help either

No, the passenger not following the Cabin Crews instructions caused this.

And of that, I am certain, is how any Court of Law will view it.

I suggest listen to the longer YouTube version, the AFP officers state the reasons to the passenger in why he is being removed, and the consequences if he does not comply.

Never had an issue with PAX location for a Loadsheet. I did need to get an accurate count of children and infants once in order to get the last pallet on a DC-10 to HNL, but that was a weight issue, not balance.

As for the computer putting the Trim “on the edge”… I would imagine you’d want to get that software patched pretty quick! Besides, there’s a couple of envelopes that you work to & the Airbus or Boeing limit is not the default! 🙄

What is this crap that if you want to sit together you have to pay extra!
Ok,so theres no excuse for violence or threats but what about a bit of common sense,no matter what the cabin crew are paid or where they come from,is it really that hard to try & accomodate a family wanting to sit together.
If its true about having to pay extra to sit together as described in a few of the previous posts the people running this sh..show need to have a good look at themselves.
Just another opportunist attempt to get a few more $$$ in the bank for kpi bonuses etc.

Welcome to the world of low cost airlines, this is how it works. Suck them in with the low headline fare and make your money on the 'extra's'

In terms of what happened in the early days, rows of seats were blocked off according to a chart which took into account the W&B restrictions.

It wasn't pick a seat, any seat. It was pick a seat, not in these rows though.

Wow, just Wow! You are such an ill informed person who doesn’t even know what actually occurred or what the law and regulations are. Firstly Jetstar didn’t get the AFP to taser the guy, he wanted to be a hero not only he didn’t follow the cabin crew directions he took it a step further and didn’t follow the AFPs direction. The company have a policy, the CASR hold the regulation this guy simply thought he was above all. If only he knew he could have moved after take off and moved back before landing.

Where was the other passenger sitting that was willing to facilitate the seat swap and what are the rules on an airbus with LMCs?

I’d pay extra not to have to sit next to my wife….

It's not just Jetstar sadly. I remember a story about VA not so long ago where it certainly appeared from the reporting that a passenger asked a question and the gate staff called the police. I don't know what sort of a society we are headed toward but I know in my day, the role of front-facing customer service staff was to discuss matters with customers and not call the police as soon as someone disagrees with them. They euphemistically call it 'calling security' when they're in fact, calling the police.

If you were in your front yard and your neighbour said they really didn't like the sort of lawn you'd put down, would you tell them it's your choice or would you call the police because they 'might' get aggressive. Seriously, this is a joke these days, the slightest look of disagreement and in come the goons. It comes from people being employed and put in positions who have absolutely zero ability to deal with people.

Let's not split hairs here, yes, technically they shouldn't swap people around but let's face it, if it's one passenger and they're both adults, they're both recorded at the same standard weight anyway so it makes absolutely ZERO difference to the weight and balance. Years ago, a QF 747 arrived in MEL from SYD and two pallets had been loaded in opposite positions in error, in LMC terms it was a 10 tonne error, in reality, the error was the difference in weight of what was stated and what was reality so, really, about 2-3t. The Captain barely noticed it but asked for it to be investigated. One passenger swapping with another, less effect than the drinks trolley rolling down the aisle.

Yes, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for the CC to tell him that but they apparently didn't so the situation was escalated FAR beyond what was necessary. We have people in customer service roles now who can't deal with people. Gate staff often call the police with the slightest disagreement. In my day, we'd have a discussion with the person and try and talk them down or find a solution, today, at the slightest disagreement they 'call security' like it's some sort of weapon (it's not security, it's the police). I have personally witnessed this happen when it was nothing more than a passenger questioning the staff member in a reasonable manner.

Let's not forget, we're talking about a generation, some of whom that need to take mental health leave when someone unfriends them on FB.

It's not that simple. There are limited seats and anything could have happened here, the husband might have been running late and checked in separately or they may have checked in late when there wasn't three seats available together. If it's the latter, then it's really not JQ's fault if they check in at the last minute or arrive later in the check in process. In the likes of QF and NZ there are systems and processes within departure control to ameliorate this happening but sometimes it's unavoidable. When a check in entry is done for two or three people in the same entry, any system will in the first instance attempt to seat them together.

Fault in my view is that the check in agent should have noted it and seen if there was something they could have done to fix this before the passenger got on the aeroplane.

Many years ago in QF, being a full service carrier, there were seats held back that were used for this purpose and if at the end of a flight a couple were split seated, there was a procedure to pick someone with a vacant seat next to them, upgrade that person to the next class of travel and seat the couple together. If there wasn't, the couple were upgraded to the next class even if split seating prevailed because at least they were being given something in compensation.

Everybody thinks it's a simply equation but it isn't. Pre-seat most of the flight to try and avoid split seating and you run the risk of causing it because seats get held until the end for the people pre-seated, causing split seating. It's a balancing act to get the best result, usually depending on load, the percentage dictates what size groups get pre-seated, e.g. down to groups of three if the flight is 70% full, down to two if 80%, etc. etc. Believe me, people, very smart people, have looked at this problem for decades and there's no one-size-fits-all solution.

Yes, and police of course never overreact and use their weapons of escalation - they ALWAYS do the right thing and never overreact. I come from a Police family, they were all level headed but we all know there are people out there that get a uniform and become gung ho.

I remember having AFP remove people from aeroplanes in the old days of AN and QF and they didn't have tasers and never had to use any weapons. They just used their voices and their training to explain to the person why they must leave NOW. Society is too quick to go to the next step now and Police are becoming more and more heavily armed. I mean when there's a bank robbery, what precisely justifies CRT police having assault rifles, in a country where they are banned and you can't buy/obtain them? Where does this end? Are we going to have riot police with tactical nukes in 40 years time?

I'd just observe, the video "at the point it starts" shows him being belligerent and nothing of what occurred prior so it's not a complete picture. I agree you can't have pax swapping everywhere but with nearly 40 years of experience I question if this couldn't have been handled better.

I'm sorry, but unless they turned up late or checked in separately, you can't say it's not Jetstar's fault. The check in agent has eyes and the ability to read and would have seen they were split seated. Maybe he/she did, maybe the pax didn't care at that stage or maybe they just handed them the BP and let them go blissfully unaware. I don't know a check in agent of any experience who wouldn't have looked at the seats and at least tried to do something, if they were the 207, 8 and 9th to check in out of 209 then it's not JQ's fault but if they checked in halfway, I know it's a low cost carrier but there's no cost in moving a few seats around and re-printing the BP.

But you've got to ask yourself if it was really necessary for it to get to that point. I don't know what it's like now but I agree with one of the other posters who said QF CC used to be the masters at fixing these problems. The FSD would have a quick chat to the pax, tell them he/she knew about their seating issue and when the aeroplane is airborne we'll sort it out and if we're out of options v.v. people moving, we'll make it up to you in another way. Lot's of nice people who were understanding ended up sitting in two seats together that were vacant at the back of J/Class and got lavished with champagne and other goodies. They then went and told their entire friends/family to fly with QF.

Plus in any airline you cannot swap seats in the system willy-nilly as it's locked out once the LS is produced.

Despite all the over-hyped bad publicity Qantas gets these days and the deserved criticism in many respects of the 'Feral Abacus' running QF, you never hear of this sort of thing on a Qantas aeroplane. Perhaps because despite all the changes over the last 10-20 years, the CC are still professional and know how to deal with people.

Feels like it could be a story of a good bloke having a bad day ? I got a mental image of a decent family man who’s been pushed that bit too far , sitting in the middle seat 20 rows from his kid just holding it all in and just says f it , no more !

From the Jetstar website:

Quote:

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Family travel and seating

---

As for the "He should just pay the $5" remark:
We booked flights last year with Westjet, not a particularly low cost airline, and the there and back seat charges would have cost nearly $180. As it happens we have a Westjet credit card that gives us extra baggage or that would have cost another p$90. $270 added to the cost of your flights ain't peanuts.