And your point, when comparing B737 with F100 scales is what again..?
Why not compare QF 737 to 787 on the MEL-PER sector as well then..?

Comparing A320 to A320 would be technically correct yes, but that is not what you are inferring here.

You’re aware they fly A320s to Broome…? I was comparing a 737 to a A320

You're aware that the figures you quoted are not A320 scales..?

Very aware. Why don’t you give us the correct scales. My point will still be proven.

Not saying you don't have a point, but don't use shock tactics such as quoting completely irrelevant figures to prove your point. Not associated with them, so will refrain from providing inaccurate figures :E

Both figures quoted are about $50k shy of actual figures atm

350k vs a little over 200k if that makes you happy?

737 Captain can make similar to a 787 captain be it working a lot harder for it.

Here's a question for you, Satoshi. Let's ignore real figures. How much do you think an A320 FO and an A320 Captain should be making as a comparison to the average fulltime aussie wage?
1.2x? 1.5x? 2x?

The average aussie wage. Think about all the hundreds of jobs out there. Most would be at home every night, less stress, less skill and training, and wouldn't have 180 people's lives in their hands multiple times per day dealing with schedules, fatigue, MELs, crosswind/TS/sheer/traffic in ctafs/visibility/etc
Actually, let's make it more interesting. How much should those A320 FOs and Captains make compared to the average WA wage? 1.5x more? 2x more? 3x more?

Comparing Pilot wages to the average Aussie wage is a Fools Game for many reasons - we all know it...

Let’s make it even more interesting! Let’s use WA FIFO workers as a more appropriate comparison. A 19yo drillers offsider can make far more money than the average wage in a very high turnover position, s/he is compensated well not just to try (in vain) to stop them from pulling the pin but also for the varying levels of misery inflicted upon them.

Surely these factors combined with the cost of pilot training would suggest an A320 FO be provided with a few more rods!

Why is it a fool's game?

You're an apologist for Network's poor wages. Now it's time to defend them.

How much more should an a320 pilot be making compared to the average aussie doing presumably the average job? Easy question to answer.

Mate, I think you are misreading the room on this one...I'll just put this here from another thread to quell your fears...
Coat, Hat, Door :zzz:

You must be a politician. Great at avoiding questions.

Does that include F100 to A320 left to left seat?

Network A320 pilots should be at least aiming for parity with mainline 737 wages and conditions.
Network F100 pilots should be at least aiming for better than NJS 717 wages and conditions.
Similar wages and conditions for similar jobs.

There are ways of doing unofficial industrial action. Do the bare minimum as a starting point.

One could argue that it would take considerably less if QF Management had mainline pilots operating the routes Network are operating…

I fail to see how an individual companies time to command has anything to do with deserving more pay. 🤦‍♂️

NAA - The bin chicken scabs of the airline world.

No wonder they get excited when it‘s announced there’s some 30 year old, clapped out A320s on the way.

You wont find more than a handful of pilots at NAA who were around at the time where the term “scab” come into our industry. Absolutely zero justification for the use of that word to be aimed at the NAA pilot group.

Keep you your jaded and toxic comments to yourself Pete, clearly you don’t understand what that word actually means. 🤦🏼‍♂️

Charming. Does it ever occur to some of you skygod wankers that quite a few people lost their livelihoods during the pandemic, and if those people want to live in a particular part of the world, they're left with little choice but to accept what's available in the local market?

Because QF Management only allows their existence through low pay?

20% churn rate per year. Broken system. Provide a viable career path for existing Mainline Crew. Requires a complete change in mindset.

I’ll accept the current model if QF Management demonstrates savings achieved with low T & C’s Vs costs of training, admin etc etc.

Till that cold day arrives in hell I expect QF Management to abide by their own promulgated “non negotiable business principles “ ie “recruiting the right people into the right jobs”. As a poster on Qrewroom highlights those same principles state:“Our future success is underpinned by our people being skilled, motivated and supported to do great things.”

I bet your were applying to NAA during the pandemic when you were stood down Pete. Happy to lower your standards then but clearly back on your high horse now.

Everyone we are in the presense of a Sky God! Wow.

I doubt they get excited over a 30 year old A320. I think they take them for exactly what they are and going through the register don't know if many of them are 30 years old 🤦‍♂️. Bet you were applying for them 3 years ago when you were stacking shelves in woolies. 🤣

What a miserable part of this industry you present as, inside or outside of the flight deck I’m pleased our paths don’t cross regularly.

I hope you never have a requirement for the empathy of others, I imagine it’ll be in short supply.

Why do people continue to use this filthy word.
1989 was 34 years ago. Move on. You’re a scumbag Pete.

I bet you think that all the group AOCs are scabs except mainline. I know your type. You can spot them a mile away.

Let's change the thrust of the discussion, shall we, or the thread will be locked.

Like it or not, PPRuNe prefers not to get down and dirty regarding 1989.

For what little it may be worth to those who were not there and flying at the time, the timeframe is a tad longer than the previous post might suggest.

34 years ago even!

I know a few guys there that just want to live in the west and fly planes. Leave them in peace.

We'll edit for a little while but the lock beckons. - jt

In any case a "scab" is a strike breaker (in any industry), not relevant in this case. If you want real change you need all QF groups to represent as a group and sign clauses in the EBAs that prevent each group stepping on the others toes, ie scope clause. That is all group unions agree to work together to get that clause enacted. Only united you will be able to counter what management is doing, calling names, threats and disunity will just continue the cycle, management doesn't want you to agree on anything, that's how they can keep the downward pressure applied on your T&C. If you don't agree you get less.

And seriously I say this as at this time where experienced pilots are at a shortage QF seems to be the only pilot group going backwards in T&Cs with management laughing all the way to the bank with a massive profit announcement.... People need to grow some balls or you will be on bus driver wages in a few years.

typo oops. I was only 10 years out ….😂

Scope Clauses are the only answer to achieving solid unity across the QF pilot group. Unfortunately due to today's selfish survival modes that we are all programmed into managment have no concern about strength in numbers and will continue to divide and conquer. Unions....Unity....Yeah....Nah.

Have never worked for the Q group, nor a subsidiary. However, have many friends I trained with about 30 years ago working at Q.

But good attempts to change the subject. One can only surmise such a huge reaction to my post means there’s something in it.

If you weren’t so busy flying to the Pilbara on days off for $350, you might have time to sit down and really THINK about how what you accept and normalise screws everyone else in the industry.

I don’t have anything against NAA pilots. You need to be aware that whoever accepts the lowest conditions affects EVERYONE else.

Let’s say for example, there’s 10,000 active jet airline pilots in Australia. Probably Qantas have the top 2000 or so in terms of pay. Then there’s VA, Jetstar, Rex and probably NAA tied for bottom place.

If Qantas pilots go in for an EBA, it only affects them because they’re at the top. No-one below them is affected because they’re currently paid less. If anything, it may help drag others up. What they are doing and accepting is affecting only them.

But if you’re say in the bottom 500 paid airline pilots in the country, the minimum you will accept affects EVERYONE above you. If airline management know there’s people willing to do much more for much less, it dilutes our profession and drags down what the other 9,500 pilots above you can achieve.

The lowest paid Australian jet pilots in fact have a huge amount of industrial responsibility, because they’re effectively demonstrating what the industry minimum can be for everyone above them. Lower that standard enough, and those 9,500 above you are at risk of losing their work as greedy management break legacy jobs apart and play everyone against each other.

Who the hell goes in on a day off and does a Pilbara return for $350? It’s absolutely ludicrous and your union should be stamping that **** out. All you’re doing is pissing on your colleagues both at NAA and other airlines.

We’re in a time of high pilot shortage, record airline profits, record aircraft orders, and for the first time in many years - a much easier pathway to US ATP jobs with an Aussie licence. Currently more Australian ATPL holders are disappearing overseas than new Australian ATPLs getting issued!!!

All airline pilots in Australia should be digging in right now for big improvements in conditions, not going to work for peanuts or playing into the hands of management.

What happened at NJS with the A220 should be a warning for everyone. They didn’t hold firm to bullying (“we’ll give the new jets to someone else”). They rolled over, accepting a crap pay deal. And then a huge bunch of them resigned en masse to go fly for Atlas 🤦🏻 All they’ve done is served up a huge **** sandwich for everyone who is left behind.

If they didn’t like the deal, they should have grown a backbone and not voted it up.

I wish you all well in getting huge improvements to terms and conditions at NAA, in what is most definitely a pilot’s market. Please value your profession and value yourselves.

All airline pilots in Australia should be digging in right now for big improvements in conditions, not going to work for peanuts or playing into the hands of management.

This bit is correct , blaming the bottom 500 jet pilots in Australia has been done to death , accusing unions of being weak is a reflection on the members not the proffesional union employees or nominated reps . Divide and conquer is alive and well . I’m all right Jack works for the top end of town . Problem is industry wide so I’m guessing the answer will need to involve everyone .

Well said, Pete.

To the network guys - if you vote no to whatever crap they throw at you, what are they going to do?

Who else can they offer it to that's paid less?

You literally have nothing to lose.

I'll disagree with this point only, in that you need the top to keep appreciating as well as the bottom. It keeps a flow of pilots moving towards better conditions and a view of what you can achieve. If the top level is being stomped on what hope has the bottom to get improvements. For the bottom rung to have bargaining power they need something to aim for. Hence everybody in the industry needs to support each other when it comes to PIA and not white ant the others attempt to improve their lot, that is when the word scab comes out. Sadly I see too much bickering within companies own pilot groups aiming at unions and splitting the base when they need to work together, if you can't even grasp the idea of unity within your own company you will never grasp the idea of it needing to be industry wide. So what if there is slightly different views on what scraps you argue over, or this pathetic percentage vs that, its about overall gains.

A good example is QLink vs Rex. With the constant issues between Easterns and Sunstate it is getting to the point where the united SAAB group at Rex will be on equal conditions to a Q400 pilot having already surpassed the Q300 package.

Pretty much what went on at Jetstar. The book needed to be re written, dollars was just one part. The book is too old, new aircraft coming in for new missions, complete overhaul needed in pretty much all categories in the old agreement. Nobody listened, everyone had so many opinions, zero direction, company was over the moon, and a terrible contract was approved. The company can now increase its margin thanks to that behaviour, further incentivising those at the top.

Don’t fall into the same trap. But you probably will.

Could not agree more Pete.

Too many Pilots without a backbone in this Country.
Did we all get into this Industry to earn a average salary?
Is it really worth the time and money to get into an Airline for the Base salary to be average considering the hoops you have to jump through each year Sims,Medicals,working weekends and public holidays?
You cannot go off all the Day off Payments or additional hours picked each month because at the end of the day if it comes to a grinding halt and everything is outsourced you will be paid Base Salary.

Going into work for $350 is a disgrace.
So if you get called into work for a 10 hour duty less tax you will pretty much be working for 20-25 take home to fly a A320.
As long as we have the Majestic Bin Chickens happy eating the chewing gum off the shoes of fellow Pilots what hope does any other subsidiary have.
A large majority of these pilots being A320 network and E190 Bravo have applications into other subsidiary groups paying more when at the end of the day they do not realise they are making it a race to the bottom.
As for the E190 operation so many Expat Captains that have had snouts in the trough for years are happy selling out fellow pilots coming into an airline as a retirement Job for a couple of years before leaving is disgrace.

Respect to the Pilots that have a backbone and got into this Industry to strive for better conditions and pay and to be respected for what you do.

Another one that needs to get down off their pedestal and appreciate the fact that not everyone has the same "choice". Curious to know what these so-called "pilots that have a backbone" have managed to achieve, other than feather their own nests at the expense of everyone else.

You always have a “choice”
No one makes you sign the dotted line.
No one makes you vote Yes/No with contract Negotiations.

If you had a “backbone” you would not sign a rubbish agreement making it a total race to the bottom.

As for “gun to our head” you always have a choice my friend…

And where was that so-called "backbone" when mainline pilots signed new agreements to fly their shiny new jets, hmmm?
Did they have a choice?
Did someone make them sign the dotted line?
Did someone make them vote "Yes"?

It's about time those who hold privileged positions in the Qantas Group stopped denigrating their "lesser" colleagues with pejorative terms such as "bin chicken" or "sc@b". Most pilots I know try to make the best of the choices that are available to them.

BTW, I do not work for Qantas or any of its subsidiaries.

You CANNOT be serious?

Have a look at what a Qantas pilot was paid, in real terms, 25 years ago and tell me who's gone further backwards, the Qantas pilot or the "lowest paid Australian jet pilot." You're kidding yourself mate.

Where did the QF SO B-Scale come from…:ugh: