How about tethers suction cupped or similar to the cockpit side windows?
So many solutions available. Obvious thing is the current system isn't working. Guess a tech log entry is not so reliable given the numerous cases where work is signed for but not done. (including other topics) |
First item of the Before Start checklist:
"Pins & Pitot covers". Go no further until you are absolutely certain they've been removed…… If not certain, ask the LAME to visually confirm. May take a minute but so be it. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11286391)
So the certification of removal is done before the removal happens?
If yes, that’s commercial pressure perverting safety procedure, pure and simple. Steering By-Pass pin, shown to crew after engine start/pushback.......part of the certfied Transit Check for some airlines. Final walk round, cargo doors, pax doors closed and locked......part of the certified Transit Check for some airlines. How do you certify for the door being closed if you need to open it to get off the aircraft post signing the Tech Log? Pretty basic stuff maybe, but examples where practicalities over ride the process. Same could be said for the pitot covers. Leave them on for as long as possible prior to pushback to prevent wasp ingress with removal already certified in tech log or remove them and sign for the work leaving time for wasps to do what they do in the interluding 10-15 mins? I can exactly see how this happened in a process sense and adding in an Engineer dealing with multiple aircraft, distracted by another fault and some airlines' OTP obsession. Recognising the inbuilt issue and having a inbuilt protection is the issue, such as show covers with the by-pass pin as they are all joined together, and crew to stow warning placard which is placed next to the throttles once they have sighted the covers post pushback. Blame is better to give than to receive! |
Tom Sawyer
So we end up with a hole in the process where you certify the work and then pull the covers immediately before pushback.. |
"Pins & Pitot covers". Go no further until you are absolutely certain they've been removed…… If not certain, ask the LAME to visually confirm. May take a minute but so be it. Remember that they will blame you for any mistakes if you take on the responsibility and solve problems for them. If BNE flights are always delayed 5 mins to check the pitots are correct then they will soon enough get the message. If you get some push back just quote them chapter and verse of the manual and the problem will become theirs to deal with. Nothing gets solve quicker in aviation than an issue that affects a manager's bonus. |
Deliberate, systemic certification of safety-critical pre-flight actions before they’ve been carried out? The accident investigation report writes itself.
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So just before telling the guy on the headset that your cleared to push, what do y’all say or ask them?
do you ask that all the doors are closed, and the bypass pin is installed? ask them if the pitot covers are removed too, maybe. |
Remember that they will blame you for any mistakes if you take on the responsibility and solve problems for them. If BNE flights are always delayed 5 mins to check the pitots are correct then they will soon enough get the message. If you get some push back just quote them chapter and verse of the manual and the problem will become theirs to deal with. Nothing gets solve quicker in aviation than an issue that affects a manager's bonus |
Originally Posted by framer
(Post 11286818)
Tom Sawyer
That shouldn’t happen. If Engineers are making a conscious decision to do this then they don’t understand how fallible their minds are. Distraction is probably the greatest threat but their are others. If any Engineers are reading this I hope you’re disturbed by the idea of signing them off as removed prior to removing them. I’m pretty sure most of you would not contemplate it. Now pitot covers are a different level in flight safety terms and we know what the procedure should be. Flipping this around a bit for sake of argument; Engineer does the procedure correctly and removes covers, verifies and signs for the job after completion at say 15-20 mins before departure, so maybe 30 mins plus before take off, barring any issues. Aircraft departs and gets airborne with a ASI fault as per the first in the series of three, the EY aircraft, and is found to have mud wasp nest blocking pitot tube. Subsequent inquiry finds pitot covers removed too early. Where do we go from there? Is it deemed acceptable risk, and on what basis, after all, we don't really know how many ASI incidents have been averted by the fitting of pitot covers in BNE. At the moment the data from incidents is mud wasps 1, pitot covers 2 so not conclusive. We can't control mud wasp nest building, but we can control pitot covers but they come with an inherent safety risk that needs controls and management, which may include accepting signing for the job before carrying out the task as per steering by-pass pin which is controlled by showing the pin. For that matter covers could be shown to the crew through the DV window as they are removed immediately prior to push when the person is on the steps (if you can find any). I'm not advocating that the Engineer did nothing wrong. I'm not advocating this approach to all Engineering tasks. I'm trying to apply some real world reality to the situation that reduces the risks from both aspects. We can't Eliminate the risk (Mud wasps). We can't Engineer the risk out (pitot tubes). So we are left with Manage, which is down to fallible humans. I don't think the lessons from the MH incident have been learnt. More robust and active "Manage" measures are required from both Engineering and Flight Crew, and recognition that we do not operate in a perfect, controlled world but one that where one "solution" could impact another causing another issue. |
Framer, I totally agree that this should not happen but these are positions we are put into. There is nothing stopping you from waiting right up to end, getting a thumbs up from the pilot, removing the pitot covers, walking up to the flight deck handing over the covers or showing them to the Captain, signing the paperwork and walking off the aircraft. |
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As C441 points out....First item of the Before Start checklist:
"Pins & Pitot covers". I am led to believe a former iconic airline had, along with the pitot cover log reference, a "before start and pushback" checklist between cockpit and engineer on headset when doors closed and the aerobridge was retracted and went along the lines of..... Pilot...Doors Engineer...Checked closed and locked Pilot...Pins and pitot covers Engineer...Removed and stowed Etc, etc,etc, Even though the log book entry was cleared and covers shown to crew, for some reason management decided the checklist was a waste of time and got rid of it. To me it would serve as a backup reminder just in case. Rgds McHale. |
Tom Sawyer, spot on. 👍
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 11286906)
.............There is nothing stopping you from waiting right up to end, getting a thumbs up from the pilot, removing the pitot covers, walking up to the flight deck handing over the covers or showing them to the Captain, signing the paperwork and walking off the aircraft.
Then, doors 2 is closed, and someone needs to be found to drive the airbridge away. Then, the pilots wait for the headset guy to come on the interphone and give their checks and the pilots can call for push and start. That is a good 10 mins already since the covers were removed. Push and start can take 5 mins or sometimes more to start both engines and complete the after start checks and call for taxi. Then you have maybe a 10 minute taxi... Plenty of time for the mud wasps to do their thing after the covers were removed. The PITOT covers ideally need to be removed after push and start, with the steering bypass pin (by having strings to pull them away by someone at ground level without needing steps), and shown to the pilots during the wave-off. |
Tom Sayer;
Framer, I totally agree that this should not happen but these are positions we are put into. Anyway, I don’t mean the above to sound antagonistic, have a nice night everyone :) |
Pitot covers left on again at Brisbane.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-i...afe-conditions
Just shows up the holes in the process. So many opportunities to be noticed. |
Hope Singapore Airlines gave the observant refueller some first class tickets to somewhere nice!
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I’ve heard of forestry companies using cameras that will measure the trees on the truck and at the same time alert the company to a missing wheel nut. Maybe there is a solution to pitot covers being left on in there somewhere.
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Originally Posted by Bull at a Gate
(Post 11616125)
Hope Singapore Airlines gave the observant refueller some first class tickets to somewhere nice!
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While the ATSB was not able to formally establish that fatigue contributed to the occurrence, the investigation did note the LAME had reported the workload associated with their dual role of LAME/regional manager had become considerably more demanding following the COVID-19 pandemic. |
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