Pilots will be looking at considerable compounding losses over the life of the agreement and beyond. The only certainty in this agreement would be the other carriers doing the same if agreed to by VA pilots.

A bit rich asking that (pun intended)

I think yes, because it beats the $$$ being paid outside the industry while not flying. Why should those that took the bullet for everyone else put off their possible return for the benefit of those that kept their jobs when theres a chance to get back in?

Times are $h!t. when they turn again, thats the time to demand the higher wages, with hopefully an already larger workforce.

Ending up on the Award with CAO 48 work rules will be the biggest own goal in the history of negotiations. You are then stuck on that with no protections, no overtime still working 12 hours/ 4-5 sectors a day. Then in 2-3 years time you are negotiating from that position. What are you willing to trade for DDO protections you once had?

I think we would have some leverage if the award was really the award as the real award would be unworkable for an airline. However this ridiculous situation where CASA get to muscle in on industrial relations takes away any leverage held by the pilots.

There's a Psychology aphorism - people fear loss twice as much as we relish success.

For existing crews, the future seems horrible with each chip-away at pay and conditions. But, there are probably upsides that obscured by the fear of losing something.

Nothing is the same as 10 years ago, 20 years ago... it's all gone, never to return, and newbies will always come through the system to replace you. The only viable option is forward...adapt and overcome. Bon chance.

Having not been paid for 18 months I'd simply settle for minimum wage and a management team that doesnt lie through its teeth to me and cream all the OT while the rest of us go bankrupt.

If you are being paid to fly an airliner in this country currently, your doing alright.

Thankfully the unions are looking after us though so there is nothing to be concerned about.

MCD

also don’t forget that the proposed EBA does not include any compensation for CPI increases.

currently the USA and many EU countries experience inflation levels in excess of 5%.

if during the next three years Australian CPI is 4% than straight away 12% pay reduction is achieved by the company .

so even if the next EBA of 2024 a 10% pay rise is achieved than effectively we are back at square one.

A lot of experts here with no skin in the game.

A world wide pandemic with historic levels of unemployment in the airline industry and an Australian avaition industry that is being hamstrung by the State and Federal pupet masters on a daily basis.

Having first hand knowledge of what VAA passenger loads are like and the cancellations that happen on a daily/weekly basis through no fault of our own, I have trouble reconciling the unbridled enthusiasm of some to enter into an industrial dispute with VAA during these very tough times.

I am being offered over $200K (fly or not - guaranteed) with 13 days off in 28 (Checkies over $262K)
I am being offered over $260K to fly 70 hours in 28
I am being offered over $270K to fly 80 hours in 28 and take 6 weeks leave.
I am being offered $170 per day in overnighting expenses.
Roster swap systems, overtime credits, protection against stand downs up to RP3 2022, Hard Credits ($) for infringing DDO/unscheduled overnight.

I write this as I hear on the TODAY show that Qantas have just announced 2500 'front line workers' have been laid off for the next 2 months.

We have a current staffing level of about 900 VAA pilots, down from about 2000 VAA pilots and every one of them want a flying job back.

Yep, I'm going to listen to the PPRuNe industrial experts.

Plus, it’s not forever… say yes to what is on offer, and reset hopefully in better times in less than 3 years.

VH-ABC

Not offering an opinion either way ……..

Quote…..Plus, it’s not forever… say yes to what is on offer, and reset hopefully in better times in less than 3 years.

But,
​​​​​​…..history proves ‘it is easier said than done’….

Exactly this.

I have to say that at almost 20 years with VAA, EVERY new EBA has been an improvement.

The EBA on offers does have 'issues' but ask the folks at Aurizon who had their EA terminated by FWC if they think the FWC is a toothless tiger.
Perhaps ask the folks at Griffin Coal who had their EA terminated by FWC
Or ask the folks at Murdoch University who had their EA terminated by FWC

I think your quote ‘it is easier said than done’ will be bitter sweet if we are trying to negoiate up from the AWARD if the FWC gets involved!

Have you actually READ those cases? Go and have a read of them, in their entirety, and you'll understand why they were terminated. These were the only 3 terminated in the past 7 years, out of thousands that have been unsuccessful.

Sorry cynphil, I’m not picking up what you’re putting down.

Would it be of the assumption that the middle and senior management responsible for creating this EBA are taking significant pay cuts and not receiving bonuses as a show of good faith?

The airline was purchased with a known cost base, the significant capital items have been seen to. It would appear this proposal is just icing on the cake for the new owner.

Well said Ad-Astra! VA recently demonstrated the lengths they will go to with the new CC agreement, they won't be frightened of doing the same thing to the Pilots either. Take what you can get Folks, it may be your best offer for some time.

Do you think FWA will improve the current offer? Do you think they or anyone else in fact, care about what MIGHT happen with inflation in 2 years? How about consider what MIGHT happen to this industry if COVID continues and factor that into your demands.

It would be apparent the company is also using Pprune.

Yep. Any differing opinion is incorrect. The company has infiltrated an anonymous forum to deliberately and effectively sabotage an EA vote as the staff don't have the smarts to make up their own minds or listen to their union.

Sadly, we can't rely on the unions, who seem to be in the pockets of the company.. That appears to be why the OP suggested everyone get their own independent legal advise or contact Fair Work to make their own mind.

How do you come to that conclusion? There are 3 unions :rolleyes: signing this document. Do you think they all got together and conspired to screw pilots?

Again do you think you will be able to go to Fair Work and get better than this? What are you going to do if the company comes back with a inferior "take it or leave it" deal? Vote no again then go to the award and hope the judge is on your side??

If you want to sprout No you need to come up with your plan B and show us where it leads.