VA pilots threatened with AWARD wages
 

Contrary to popular belief, A NO VOTE DOES NOT MEAN VA PILOTS WILL AUTOMATICALLY GO TO THE AWARD! (I would have more sympathy if the new owners weren't raking in over $106 BILLION in annual revenue!!)

VA would need to make an application to Fair Work Commission (a lengthy and complicated process that will take years)! Further, the Fair Work Act sets a VERY HIGH BAR when it comes to terminating an EA, i.e:

1. VA will need to satisfy that they have negotiated in good faith (perceived threats to drag its pilots back to the award if they vote NO are NOT in GOOD FAITH!!!);
2. VA will need to show it's been involved in protracted negotiations with their employees, which has to be far beyond 2 years;
3. VA must have been involved in multiple mediation sessions with the Fair Work Commission to try and resolve the impasse between them and their pilots; and
4. VA MUST have a compelling case for operational change (e.g. they have no choice but to wind up the company, resulting in loss of jobs (they've just hired 88 pilots, during the lockdown!!)).

The Unions have rolled over and are now citing cases that are in stark contrast to what is happening at VA! VA pilots should call the Fair Work Commission or get some independent legal advice. Educate yourself before voting, don’t gamble away your long term livelihood. It is not in the best interests of Virgin to dissolve the EA (for a number of reasons) and they can’t threaten dragging you back to the Award if you vote NO. Call their bluff!

It’s in every pilots best interest to support the Virgin Pilot group and ensure a sub par agreement isn’t voted in.

There is simply no viable reason why pay or conditions should be less then what they are now.

Any Union advising members to vote in a worse EA then what they’re on now needs to be named and shamed so their members can send emails denouncing any such advice.

Which union suggested we vote this up again?

Are they? I have read both unions info and don’t think that is the case. Pretty sure also, both unions have said this is their legal advice on most things. Not “this is what will happen as a fact”

They have both given opinions (as they are entitled to). Take it or don’t take it, but it will be the majority of the Pilots only who will decide.
So if gets up, be pissed off that you are in the minority and the bulk of your colleagues don’t agree with you.

Either way, singing your tune for the pprune rumour folk won’t change anything. It just makes you smell of desperation and takes credibility away from your argument.

Just to be clear, the unions have not said that a No vote will automatically mean a return to the award. Neither has the company. The risk is there and there will be some more hurdles before they get to that point, but the unions have explained that very clearly. It appears that the OP can’t read and digest information unemotionally.

No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol.. the first offer will always be low, although it seems the subsequent offer made by Virgin was even worse.. Pilots needs to stand up for themselves. I agree with the OP, call their bluff, that's the only way they're going to come back with better terms.
Consider contributing some $$ into the kitty and taking all the info to a lawyer to get some impartial legal advice. It's shocking the unions are endorsing it after the second round of negotiations.. they sound like they're over it too..

OK let's hear it then. The company was bankrupt. There are 1000's of unemployed pilots sitting around not to mention expats. Explain why you are so valuable in the current climate.........

Yep, be happy you lot have a job. Many of us lost ours….

By sticking together and not accepting lower conditions, it will make for a better EBA for when people like yourself come back to flying again. Its in the long term interests of all pilots. Unemployment is fkn horrible. I know - Ive been there. But Im sure you wont complain if you end up flying for Virgin with a super good EBA.

So you blokes are saying 18 months ago all pilots were over-paid for what they do and because of an incompetent management team should now take a paycut?

This paycut will be used as an example by every management team from every other Australian company to lower wages. QF management have already publicly made it known that whatever the percentage reduction that Virgin crew get, they will expect the same for all their entities.

18 months from now when everyone has been re-hired and we’re all on overtime (at 10%+ less pay) you will regret reducing your wages. Remember the folks that are pushing a reduction in pay are the over 60s who’ve already paid off their house and own the big boat/caravan/whatever and are simply trying to get through a few more years until retirement…

aussieflyboy please have a look at
https://writingexplained.org/payed-or-paid-difference

The messaging has consistently been that it's either the EA or we will revert to the award, but as you rightly pointed out, there is still a significant number of hurdles they must jump before it even ends up before Fair Work. There are over 20,000 EAs that are approved by Fair Work each year and only 3 or 4 EAs that have been successfully terminated by FW in the past 5-6 years. It is very unlikely without the right accumulation of circumstances that a termination application will be successful.. you only have to read the cases to see this..

What's astounding is that in the latest proposal, they've binned the DTA and reduced the salary of some of the pilots to give to another group of pilots, presumably to increase management's salary.. they're clearly shifting money around to benefit one group at the expense of the other. A NO vote is simply a response to a **** deal and a long way from PIA (which nobody wants) and will simply result in a continuation of the current EA.

Packvalve is spot on.

Yep. Unfortunately the reality is in a COVID world that we as pilots no longer hold any kind of advantage in pay negotiations and every airlines management in the country knows it, despite how valuable any of us believe ourselves to be. Not saying I like it one bit but it’s just the reality of the situation.

Massive over supply of crew desperate to work and under demand of travel from the public is going to result in a potential race to the bottom again til things really turn around, and that seems like it’s getting much further away by the day right now.

Sorry to say but this is pretty much spot on. Sad state of affairs but be happy you have a job and not a bad one at that.

"raking in over $106 BILLION in annual revenue!!"

Where did this figure regarding "revenue" come from?

No one wants to earn less guaranteed money but so long as the work is there the minimum credit won't be a problem.

If the work is NOT there, do you think it's reasonable to work 50 hours but be paid for 70?

The offer is a fundamental change but there have been some lifestyle wins by the unions and its something to build on in future.

Yep, spot on.

Back in the 1990s, working in GA we used to dream of getting the award as there were many employers who didn't even pay the legal minimum.

A deal needs to be struck, where pay and conditions are realistic and enable the company to survive the present situation, but don't set a precedent for the future when normality returns. There needs to be a provision for when profitability returns.

Do Not Blame the public - that can not travel!

Many of us have flights booked, flight credits with both Virgin and Jetstar (that we could not use) and even cruises booked - no shortage of demand!

Exactly the same pay but under the ‘new’ EBA, you get an extra day off every second roster (12 DDOs vs alternating 11/12 currently).

Captain BB, the AFAP published this in their communications. This is hours per 4 Week roster. Minimum hard payments of 5 hours for working a day off are gone. Min guarantee is set at 57.5 hours (actually 56.75 as there is a .75 credit for online courses) gives a new base salary of CAPT $200330 {no annual leave) $203412 (4 weeks annual leave) FO $130065 (no leave) $132066 (4 weeks leave). DDO start at 2130 prev night so hard credit from 2200. Worst case - never exceed Min credit and no leave taken 16.33% pay cut. Unlikely but there it is.
https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.ne...B399A24D9.jpeg

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.ne...45/Capture.jpg

That number is what some guys are bleating about. What they fail to recognise is that if the hours don’t support the current 69 hour EBA, company continues on with MOU. If unions deny MOU extensions, company stand people down. So either way, you’ll get paid the same amount.

Is it zero pay for sick leave if you're above 57.5? If so, that's a disgrace.

Nothing like encouraging people to come to work sick.

In which case the company would still find a way to pay you less via MOUs and/or stand downs.

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.

Sorry Tim, this makes about as much sense as your responses at the Town Halls.

Yeah cool, in the absence of a proper retort, resort to name calling. Keep screaming from the balcony, no one is listening.

Do QF get 0 credit for standby if not called out? Seem to recall AFAP writing this recently.

13 DDO for less than 65 credit hours is a good thing and will make the company think about not stuffing a roster with standby.

Once again, if the work is not there, do you expect to be paid in full to a higher minimum guarantee? Yeah its a pay cut if you are restricted to 57 hours pay compared to 2019, but if that's all you are flying in 12 months time then there are bigger problems at hand.

Just had a look; QF receive no credit for standby and minimum 4 hours credit for the first day only. VA mimimum 4 hours credit for every standby day used.

I know where you are coming from. But can I suggest 200k to an unemployed pilot might look pretty good.

Spot on. Alan Joyce is going to be waiting with bated breath.

So are you saying that when you return to flying, you'd be happy earning what you were earning ten years ago?

Half the industry is already there. I mean the Star is about 15 years behind in remuneration, Rex uses that as its pawn and takes another 10% off. That place will probably struggle to make money so forget any increases there for ever and ever. The star bosses will soon think they are paying too much! Will bite them on the @rse when everyone pisses off later this decade for the big twins when dollars are upped abroad.

Short Term haircuts folks.

Virgin went to Fair Work seeking "Bargaining Assistance" after LESS than 2 rounds of negotiations with the Cabin Crew EA, and got their changes, so why would they come back with better terms to Pilots? What leverage are Pilots going to use to stand up for themselves... PIA in a pandemic after exiting Administration?

"Bargaining Assistance" is exactly that, it's not the same thing as applying to Fair Work to terminate an EA. The latter is a very lengthy road, according to my discussions with Fair Work.

Except the ‘bargaining assistance’ was the commissioner writing a letter directly to cabin crew stating that a no vote would meet the requirements for the termination of their EBA.

I do not want to see us go down this path as the alternative to this EBA are worse conditions, either through an alternative EBA (worse than this one) or the award. There is no way that we’ll be able to keep the current EBA after exiting administration and in the middle of a pandemic.

And the end of the day, vote no if it doesn't meet your lifestyle/remuneration expectations. If enough people vote no, then it will go to Fair Work. I have no doubt VA will go to Fair Work and go their hardest. Time will tell.

If it gets up, then you will have to live with it for the next 2 years and go from there. Good luck.

It would meet the requirements for an application to be made, it's not the same as an order to terminate the EA. Also, you have to remember that there is not much difference between the Cabin Crew's EA and the award, but there is a substantial difference between the pilots' EA and the award. As someone said earlier, it's a very high bar and a difficult, time consuming and expensive exercise for Virgin. Fear mongering at its finest, I say.

Your statement was "No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol."

I was just pointing out that Virgin sought assistance from Fair Work on the Cabin Crew EA prior to 2 rounds of negotiating being completed.

Apologies if facts aren't welcome.

They requested assistance, it wasn't an application to terminate. There's a difference.