Sydney-Canberra proposed Twin-Otter floatplane service
 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-...posed/12957556

Sydney Seaplanes are proposing a twice daily Rose Bay - Lake Burley Griffen (West Basin) service using a 15 seat Twin Otter.

There is to be a test flight ‘next week’ (beginning 14 December).

Might be a unique opportunity for the photographers among you.

I don’t see this becoming a regular service. There is already a proposal to partly in-fill the lake at West Basin for apartment living.

Thank god the propellers don't go in the water!

That looks sensational!

The local Canberra Nimby’s are already voicing concerns!

The Canberra yacht club Commodore, hasn’t seen Sydney harbour on busy day.

Good luck to them. I hope it makes a good impression and if it doesn’t, I hope it proves a point to those in power.

They could take some lessons from Victoria BC Canada. We have over 100 movements a day sometimes in our little water aerodrome. https://www.focusonvictoria.ca/focus...our-midst-r14/

Great idea but I can't see the Government allowing it on strategic policy grounds. CASA would, I think also not allow it even if it was technically possible. There will be a demonstration flight and then the project will be allowed to die in a welter of committees.

My reasoning is simple; Such a service, were it permitted and succeeds, would provide a constant reminder of the utility of General aviation (Little aircraft) to the public, public servants and legislators. Its the perfect advertisement for GA - which is why it can't be permitted.

A successful service raises a whole series of very uncomfortable policy questions for the Department of Transport and CASA. Here are some of them:

- Considering the billions we have spent on Sydney transport systems, Badgery's creek, freeways, etc. Why is this service even needed? Could it be that our major investment has been wasted? Our transport planning does not allow for floatplanes! Especially not in a designed environment like Canberra!

- Considering that the National Capital now has a floatplane service, how can any government or authority reject applications for similar services across Australia? It's the thin end of the wedge! How do we prevent private float planes from landing?

- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!

- Considering the success of this service, what does this demonstration of the usefulness of GA aircraft mean for our policy positions on such things as airport privatisation, infrastructure investment as well as transport planning? What just happened to our "One size fits all" big airport model?

- How can CASA regulate or interfere with such a highly visible service? How do they regulate other services? With what effect?

These are just a few of the uncomfortable questions that would be asked but mustn't.

I would imagine that this is just a publicity announcement. I doubt that a twice daily service is viable and the pollies are never going to step foot in a Twotter.

Brilliant idea...imagine being able to step onto an aircraft at Rose Bay (almost in central Sydney) and hop off in central Canberra. Beats all that awful traffic out of Sydney on the Hume Hwy.
Of course there will be some bureaucratic hurdle to prevent this

I doubt it's aimed at politicians. High worth tourism perhaps, Canberra is a great place to visit, I would jump at the chance to do the equivalent in any country.

I have ridden the Single Otter from Victoria to Vancouver, and it is a gorgeous flight - over water all the way, perfect for a forced landing in a single floatplane. Our baggage went by bus on the ferry - not much space in an Otter when you put the pax on board.

If the flight is carried out IFR (which it will probably have to, as RPT) on a cloudy day, will they shoot the approach to Canberra Apt and then go VFR to the puddle? Will CA$A insist on Flight Attendants? X-ray security at Rose Bay and at "Gough's Harbour"? Tarmac terriers in yellow "FollowMe" boats scooting around the water, examining boating people for not displaying ASIC? Big fences put up around Sydney Harbour to stop intruders?

Somebody in CA$A will be licking his lips as he contemplates the Fees and Charges applicable to this simple run. And Sydney Airports Corporation will be screaming about missing out on a landing fee.

Some people on here do spout absolute rubbish. The fares suggested are competitive with Sydney - Canberra via jet RPT. Good tourist market.
Not a "twotter" Aircraft proposed is a Cessna Caravan.
Sunfish views suggest he is opposed to aviation in general as he appears unable to write anything positive about anything in aviation. Must be a depressing life.
NCA badly need educating about aviation. That would be a much better investment of time and effort than some of the crap written here. Hopefully Sydney Seaplanes staff will be able to explain in short sentences with single syllable words.

Could continue on to Jindabyne.

Sydney Seaplanes previously used their C208 Caravan on an approved RPT service from Rose Bay to Newcastle, landing in the Hunter river and tying up near Honeysuckle, in the early 2010's I guess? It attracted a few regulars, but apparently was not successful in the long term. I tried it once - a wonderful way to travel on a nice day. This service was single pilot, no flight attendant. Each passenger was issued a belt mounted life jacket which you had to have at the ready during the flight (though you didn't actually fully don it). My understanding is this was a condition of approval for single engine operations in RPT - you must always be within gliding distance of a landing area, and the ocean counted but it was presumed an ocean landing would not necessarily be upright, hence the life jackets. The flight path followed the coast up to Newcastle and only operated VFR as I understand it. How would that work for a Canberra service, given the terrain would surely not be suitable for such a condition?

Btw, Wikipedia claims that Rose Bay has IATA code RSE - is that accurate? Was there an equivalent code for Newcastle CBD/Hunter River when Sydney Seaplanes operated that service? Could travel agents / booking channels sell these tickets "normally?" I remember booking mine direct through the web site.

15 passengers would be a good load in a Caravan!

"The company estimates each flight would be able to carry 15 passengers, each paying about $300 for a one-way ticket."

"Sydney Seaplanes would use a 15-passenger de Havilland Twin Otter seaplane like the one pictured."

You wouldn't think there were too many spare Otters floating around! :}

So how does this all work in IMC? The departure/arrival/approach tracking alone is difficult once in cloud. You could make up some IFR Water Approaches and some SIDs & STARs but how low are they going to get you with all the terrain around? Not to mention the icing. Unless they are prepared to throw alot of money at this operation I doubt it will get off the ground.

Maybe a cunning stunt CF??

Did you mean off the water? :)

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/sto...ute-to-sydney/

A 208 for the 'proving' flight with larger capacity (Twin Otter) if sufficient demand?

If the report in the Canberra Times is accurate, the National Capital Authority seem to have a positive view depending on issues to be addressed (safe passenger loading/unloading, refuelling, etc)

Terrain, near lake buildings, current lack of navaids ... approach & take-off options may be somewhat restricted.

Black Mountain Tower is about 475 metres above lake level, about 2.5km NW from West Basin

I’d like to see it work but am not too hopeful.

Well that’s one way to go broke I guess...

I have flown the Twin Otter and it is a magnificent aircraft. But it is purpose designed to go where other aircraft cant.
Think the Himalayas ( Kathmandu - Lukla) , PNG or island hopping.
Flat out it will do 180 kts but usually 150-160. A Dash 8-400 300-350kts .
Bouncing around at 10,000 ft for an hour in summer or through a cold front in winter ? I don’t think so.
Maybe save a few minutes to and from the airport.
Maybe novelty value for tourists but thats about bit.

I wish 'em luck, they are gunna need lots of it! -)

Its thought bubbles like this that requires you to start with a large fortune in aviation...you know the rest.

I have flown from Coal Harbour in Vancouver over to Victoria a few times and enjoyed every minute. That’s a flight about a third of the distance SYD-CBR. So figure on 1:10 plus vectors and arrival for a flight getting bashed in low level turbulence. Sign me up!

You are a miserable human being. Does anything good ever happen in your day Sunfish? Or do you wake up angry, stay angry and then go to bed angry?

It's a shame you can't open a thread now without the usual suspects engaging in a childish pi$$ing contest and a bit of little willy waving.

Both entertaining and sad at the same time.

CC

Actually, I think he's spot on re the outlook on GA by various elements of gov't. He doesn't sound angry or miserable to me; cynical maybe, correct too, but not angry. The meds must've kicked in. This is not the Sunfish who has left the building in disgust numerous times, this is the medicated but clear-thinking version. I think the other version is more entertaining.

Just get a battery powered Twin Otter and every pollie will be lining up.

Just buy new Viking Twin Otter
https://www.vikingair.com/viking-air...c-6-twin-otter

If you aren't wearing it when you hit the water, it may as well be stuffed inside your left boot for all the good it will do you.

There's at least one seaplane base with instrument procedures: Greenville, Maine. But in Alaska, where floatplane operations are routine, even their busiest place, Lake Hood near Anchorage, doesn't have instrument procedures AFAIK.

Vag and Morno, I fail to understand how you got the idea that I want such a service to fail???? I very much want to see it succeed! What my post attempted to do was catalogue some of the barriers to getting such a service in place.

The company is going to need a PR strategy to ensure that all the barriers, including the ones I've mentioned, are surmounted. If they fail to do that, they may succeed technically but lose the battle.

For example the "Green" argument needs to be addressed e.g No need for expensive infrastructure and very small environmental footprint. Minimises road use and automotive greenhouse gas emission, etc., etc.

I would very much like to see far more use made of floatplanes for short haul as well as tourism. My mate floatplane pilot "Rocket Rod" would agree. They are one of my favourite modes of transport. Last float trip was a caravan from Hanoi to Halong Bay which saves about three hours on the road.

I understand a turbo Otter is a 3400# payload machine so 10 peeps at 250#(includes bags) and 1.5 hr fuel is at about 3300#

How about this for a proposal operation. It's only a brainstorm.
If the economics work, what about the Beriev BE-200 would that work.

The Beriev Be-200 Altair (Russian: Бериев Бе-200) is a utility amphibious aircraft designed and built by the Beriev Aircraft Company. Marketed as being designed for fire fighting, search and rescue, maritime patrol, cargo, and passenger transportation, it has a capacity of 12,000 litres (3,200 US gal) of water, or up to 72 passengers.
https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/im...9/786136as.jpghttps://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/im...7/785540as.jpghttps://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/im...6/784888as.jpg
As you can see this aircraft has all the equipment like a 737NG, regarding IFR and weather terrain etc, they could easily design
a non Pan-Ops proprietary RNP-AR approach into Lake Burley Griffen and Rose bay.
I suppose the only problem is funding, CASA, and the Greenies.

Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !

Except that there are only 17 in existence, and none of them are used to carry passengers. It needs 1000m to take off and 1300m to land. The lake looks pretty limited to where you can get those distances with a reasonable clearance from land. Can't imagine that a noisy jet in and out of CBR's lake would be very popular either.

Ahhh ok if the Be-200 is too noisy how about the - Spruce Goose?

Hang on before you call me crazy, Clive Palmer was going to build the Titanic II! Surely he will be interested in the Goose II!!!

Think about it, now this has serious merit.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d8cf80d28.jpeg

Ah yes. Australia’s version of the Japanese ‘Bullet Train’: The ****-Can-Zen.

Maybe the Short Sunderlands should make a come back. At least it's probably got better climb performance than HH monstrosity.

HH Goose. An early WIGE ? since it only flew in ground effect could call it the SanFransico Bay Monster or wherever it was tested.
Recent news shows that great beast the Caspian Sea Monster. one of being saved from a watery grave.
I'd like to see that,!

As for the seaplane service..great idea, but CAsA doesnt like enterpreneurs. Hope it gets up but I would posit red tape, green tape and time will make it very difficilt..if not impossible

I doubt the economics work out but something like this between sydney and canberra would be cool... A little faster than twin otter on floats....
https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

I wonder if you can leave out the landing gear i.e. commit to be water only and have a higher useful load....