Covid Air NZ
 

The initial Covid hardships of Air NZ were announced to be "through no fault of our own", despite them being one of the two ways for Covid to enter into New Zealand at the time (airline or ship), cough, however now with the airline transporting new international arrivals to their quarantine alternative city outside Auckland it seems Air NZ cannot of course be found at fault again at all. Rose coloured tinted glasses anyone?
Crew raise fears over Auckland-to-Wellington managed isolation flights
Air NZ now rostering separate crews for A320 international and domestic flights

I'm surprised they have taken that long to do this. And is it enough - it is even more preferable to not mix crew within a fleet. ie. Create a crew and keep them as one crew so as far as practical for a few weeks. That will stop one positive crew member taking out multiple crews.

The "Concerned Crew member" could of opted out of the flight if they were so concerned, but running to Media gets more likes on Social media I guess.

Air NZ are doing what the MOH tell them. That's why crew are getting jabbed up the nose multiple times per roster and locking themselves in Hotel rooms... on both ends of a TOD.
But hey, if the local PPRune Virologists think they know better then by all means, ask Ashley Bloomfield if he wants a break and step up.

What a bizarre post all round??? “Rose-tinted glasses anyone” - more like the most tin foil-hatted, tenuous attempt to link one airline to a virus sweeping the globe that you ever will see. The word facile comes to mind....
The link to an article dated July 3 really tops it off (take note CS) - as you say Zilch, I guess less “likes” with an actually supported argument.

So far; one confirmed case of pax to cabin crew transmission ON an aircraft. In the world. Ever.
Last AirNZ crew positive - April. Before the current measures were in place, and before the airline world truely came to a halt.

Rational risk analysis glasses anyone?

But, but, but it’s a scary headline, which means the news website gets more hits, which gets them more advertising too.

Who really cares about the facts that can be hidden when you can get more advertising dollars?

NZ is now a country that is jumping at shadows.

I'm not sure if that was a jab at me, but if so, I make no claims to be a PPRunNe Virologist, I was just repeating what various Government health departments, airline manufacturers and dedicated Aviation medical services have said at different times.

Rubberdog - point taken about the date being 5 weeks ago (I didn't note that) but that's not relevant as that recommendation was about well before that. In fact before April in fact when apparently the last ANZ positive CC was.

As I said, it's not just the pax to CC danger - it's mitigating the risk of one crew member being positive (possibly acquired outside of work) taking out multiple crews during interactions in the galley / crew bus / briefing room etc. Some other airlines had done the risk analysis and had implemented this procedure in March / April.

It would be fantastic if people didn't need Ashley Bloomfield to tell them the minimum requirement, and could instead think for themselves and exceed that minimum standard, perhaps even before they were told what it is.
I trust you are not waiting on Mr Bloomfield to tell you to use wipes in the cockpit?

Interesting that change one crew member for another is seen as a solution.

Well the science says lockdowns don’t prevent spread of covid19 and indications are that lockdowns actually exacerbate the spread...and I just listened to Ashley send us back into level 3. So obviously science doesn’t inform his decisions

How do lockdowns exacerbate the spread??

Mattyj, I would love to see your reference for that. Perhaps that latest cultivation was a bit strong.


Well Elzilcho, it would seem someone in Air NZ did wake up and decide to exceed the minimum beyond Mr Bloomfield. Well done. Lets hope they can think of more.

Masks mandatory on Air NZ as Auckland locks down

Actually it is a requirement set down in Level 3 by the government advised by Dr Bloomfield.

lockdowns don’t work..

But where's the evidence/indication that lockdowns may actually exacerbate the spread?

​​​​​​
Air NZ management have been in frequent meetings with MOH for several months now and in several occasions had actually implemented procedures over and above what the MOH were advocating. In some instances, those procedures were than adopted by MOH into their official guidelines for all Air Crew.

You of course, won't find that in a stuff.co.nz article.

I have no idea who you fly for or what your beef is with Air NZ, but it would seem there are some members of the populace who won't be happy until all Airlines are grounded and their staff unemployed. It doesn't matter what the Airlines do, someone like yourself will come along, no doubt with a degree from the University of youtube, and say they should of done more.

Replacing a Crew member is not a mitigation for COVID 19, don't attempt to mince my words. Any Crew member who is not comfortable operating has been given the ability to opt-out under the circumstances.
So long as Aircraft are operating, Citizens allowed to return home and Global freight still being shipped, there is a Risk of COVID. That risk cannot be eliminated entirely. Either accept it, or take the day off work. Running to the media accomplishes nothing except to feed the panic and fear the Media so enjoy spreading.

The sooner we all realise Covid -19 is here to stay the better - it ain't going anywhere. We cannot eradicate it, and until a safe vaccine is readily available - we'll need to live with Covid -19 and do all we can to protect ourselves and others. The economic impact of a further lockdown is going to be apocalyptic for many NZ businesses - the Govt have some hard calls to make.

At last - some common sense!

Elzilho, one minute its the minimums from MOH that AirNZ adhere to and god forbid anything more, and it has to be a virologist to know better, to now ANZ does know bettter than Bloomfield to go beyond, and have virologists apparently working for you, which is it?
Clearly going to the media did cause the company to make changes and seperate crew from international and domestic duties.
Yes there is a risk, and people at the coal-face make suggestions on how to reduce that risk. Just because management did not think of it doesn't make it inherently wrong in the first instance.
So quick to make it personal as you have done before on here, is that your only way to debate? I am not sure why you seek to be so controlling and use such a bully tactic. This is a internet forum not your place of work and you have no authority over me. Air NZ operates in the public arena and as such are open to scrutiny just as are politicians and the like, and there will not be a barrier to that scrutiny on pprune just because you don't like it.

Mattyj, the article talks about the policy of lockdowns -that different countries did 'lockdown' differently, and includes economic effects. That the USA needs to change its policy as the way it did an attempted lockdown did not work. What would be considered a lockdown for USA might not be what we in NZ would call a lockdown. Also, some countries were unprepared and did their lockdowns much later rather than early. Incorporating these other factors sees some lockdowns considered a 'failure' by the Economic Research website. Some of that reference graph data does not give % proportion of the population but instead total number of deaths which is misleading. The first case graphs are also meaningless, a lockdown is about preventing the spread.

It's neither and it's both. Take your pick.
The Airline and MOH have been in collaboration for months to keep the supply chains open (Air Freight, Returning Citizens) while managing the risks associated with COVID. The point is, information is being freely exchanged between the two, many of which you wont read in the Newspaper. I've honestly lost count how many times the procedures have been modified over the last few months.
During this period, some CC (including Union reps) have taken it upon themselves to leak information to the Media, often distorting the details and/or lacking proper context in a misguided attempt to save Jobs. So much so in fact, that the Pilot unions (and possibly the engineers) have distanced themselves from the CC. I feel for them, I really do, but they've done themselves more harm than good.

Interestingly enough, in my last refresher course (done during COVID), one of the topics was Decompression and the effects of Hypoxia... time of useful consciousness all that jazz. One of the Videos we got to watch was in an Altitude Chamber with an explosive decompression at altitude. Even though he knew it was coming, and his mask was right in front of him, he failed to get it on in time. Obviously a Domestic COVID flight will be at a lower altitude, especially the T-Props, but what effect does "Full PPE" have on a Crew's ability to perform their duties in the event of an emergency? Has it been tested? Beware law of unintended consequences... nothing exists in a Vacuum, unless it's Media windup.

Separating International and Domestic CC sounds great for the papers to appease the Court of Public opinion. In practice however, what exactly has it accomplished? Those international CC cannot operate a Domestic duty following an international one, but they can go shopping at the local mall because, reasons? This of course leads into the old "Crew should be stood down for 14 days" argument. But we know, that would simply lead to the operation not being viable and further jobs lost. Some say that doesn't matter "Lives before Profit". But we also know you cannot legally prevent a Citizen from returning home... so if Air NZ don't bring em in, the Chinese carriers will. Then what? Can't keep them all in Auckland, so we'll go from COVID flights to COVID busses.... do we then stand the Bus Drivers down for 14 days?
Border Staff and Quarantine Facility staff, who are arguably at a higher risk of COVID than Crew haven't been getting tested and have avoided scrutiny by the media because...they're not Air NZ so no one cares? Only now that COVID is back in the Community have lapses in procedures and testing at these facilities comes to light. Do these workers have to isolate for 14 days after a shift? Or do they go back home to their families and the local community in the same manner Crew do because precautions are being taken?

Honestly, I have no time for people who start threads and bash an Airline (any Airline) on the basis of click baity media articles full of half truths and no context. These are the same "journalists" who love to talk about Aircraft "plummeting" and Pax "fearing for the lives" everytime we take-off. As Pilots, we can usually through this nonsense so why should COVID be any different?

Spot on ElZilcho.

Is anyone who has operated Internationally recently honestly surprised by these latest revelations re Border staff etc? Whilst we have been contending with the constant change in MoH guidelines (rightly so) only this week have they mandated asymptomatic testing of front line staff at the airport.

Elephant in the corner of room etc.....

Eloquent and well put EZ. DeltaT is potentially a disgruntled pilot from an Australian airline stood down or redundant, sitting at home and trying their hardest to read whatever airline news they can get their hands on, which is limited to clickbait articles.

I have personally received screenshots from a VANZ Captain who has been sitting at home for six months... and some of the conspiracies he is now sharing on social media is bewildering. Completely lost touch with reality. Reading all the clickbait as truth. Career spent studying FCOMs and desperate to keep the sane amount of ‘study‘ up.

Perspective is key. And getting accurate information from multiple sources. Keep up god’s work of quashing the bullshot on this forum.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.20053058v1

one of dozens of studies showing that the greatest transmission of the virus happens in the home. Also staying indoors and reduced exercise and vitamin D is detrimental to your health..medicine 101

LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3181

“transmission in the home is thought to account for roughly 70% of ALL cases”

It’s important to put a space...
...in between...
...all these statements....
because while they may stand alone, some of them aren’t proven, and nor is the link....

Grabbing more information:

"Current test and trace policies have mainly focused on preventing spread in care homes, hospitals, and in the community. However, contact within households is thought to be responsible for roughly 70% of SARS-CoV-2 transmission when widespread community control measures are in place. In Wuhan, the reproduction number (R) dropped from 3.54 to 1.18 after lockdown and cordon sanitaire. But the epidemic was only brought under complete control when Fangcang (field) hospitals were introduced to isolate cases outside the home, with R dropping to 0.51 after two weeks."

What the reporting actually says is lock downs more than halved the spread however further (and significant) reduction in cases could be achieved by reducing transmission within households. Most in New Zealand will be aware new cases are now being moved to managed isolation where these necessary controls can be enacted.

Don't get me wrong, I personally lean towards the side of the fence that we are jumping at shadows but lets not start misrepresenting what authors have said. Also, your first link isn't (as yet) peer reviewed which is important to note.

On the 6pm News just now, experts, including epidemiologists are confused by aircrew exemptions.
Well I guess with the MOH knowing better, they are guilty of conspiracy claims according to the people on here.

The Company (DM) sent out a long email with attachments full of exactly how we meet MOH guidelines.

Election time. There's going to be emails and attachments up the waazoo until beyond.

Air NZ’s life is about to get very hard with new rules likely around isolation of international crew with testing. The Government has been embarrassed about airline crew testing and will react.

So assume those international airlines operating into NZ would have to comply as well. I can see some problems there.

International Aircrew are getting tested up to 4 times a month (if not more) depending on how much they're working.... compare this to Border and Isolation facility staff, some of who haven't been tested at all.

The media is on a witch hunt and crew are the scapegoat. Partly, no doubt, due to the Bluff wedding cluster which caught everyone off guard at the start of the pandemic, but also because it's Air NZ and we're no stranger to certain media outlets and their constant wind ups. Even the experts (academics) can't agree with each other, not specifically here, but globally. Every media major outlet in the world has been able to find themselves an expert willing to push their particular narrative... be it Herd Immunity, Lockdowns work/don't work, use of hydroxychloroquine etc etc
The previous experts (so I'm told) decided on a 48hr isolation for NZ based Crew on the basis that our movements were so heavily controlled while on a TOD, along with the required use of PPE and private transport, unlike arriving citizens whose movements are less known prior to arrival.
The new experts seem to disagree with this, and as the Media's decided to run with it, no doubt we'll get another change which will be complied with. If it's a 14 day isolation, this will heavily impact the viability of international operations and the Government may need to re-evaluate their freight options.

Honestly, at the moment, I have more chance of catching COVID at my local supermarket than I do in HKG, LA or anywhere else because everything is so tightly controlled. When's the last time anyone here actually operated internationally? Particularly to China/HKG?

The point is, as Cliche' as it is to say, there is no manual for COVID. The NZ Government, along with Airlines, are constantly evaluating and modifying procedures based on new advise/evidence... as they should. As Crew, we'll continue to comply or remove ourselves from duty if required. (In the beginning, PVG was basically a squaller detention centre so many crew refused to operate while some foreign carriers staged their PVG freight through HKG).

There are some who will condemn Air NZ everytime an expert says we could be doing better. Again, that's usual round here... plenty with chips on their shoulders, usually stemming from a failed interview 20 years ago and they can't let it go. QF seems to get the same vitriol from time to time. People just need to let it go. Specifically COVID, Air NZ are trying to keep the doors open and have been working with the MOH and Government (our majority shareholder) to do just that. That seems to be a source of angst for some. Perhaps they've lost their jobs and wont be happy until the rest of us have as well.

The MOH procedures for Aircrew are separated into 2 categories. NZ based Crew returning from overseas and foreign crew laying over in NZ.
It's all here:

​​​​​​​https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/...r#requirements

The government may need to provide some air-side accommodation for isolation of aircrew. Non-AirNZ crew would go there for their layovers, AirNZ crew would stay there during a rostered period, then transition to land-side MIQ for 14 days at the end of their rostered period.
It would be grossly inconvenient and inefficient, but would significantly increase the perceived safety

The facility might actually be land-side but deemed to be air-side for this purpose, and managed separately as if it were land-side.

I am not saying Air NZ is not doing a good job, just that the media seems to have turned on aircrew and if there is one thing this Government does is react to public opinion. There will be new orders issued at some point in the next 48 hours with visible 'steps' to allow the government to show just how seriously they are taking this. I am not concerned about air nz crew at all, but I do have my doubts over the non NZ based crew who are staying in hotels with no infection protocols mixing with the public at check in and check out who are operating to a 'trust' model that they won't go out of their room. That is the gaping hole in the air crew procedure.

A 14 day Isolation for Crew would certainly appease the mob. It would also result in a large number of crew refusing to work... and legally, could Air NZ force them too? Are border staff isolated for 14 days after a shift?

I can't recall if Air NZ have explicitly said as much, but the message has certainly been clear that a 14 day isolation would result in International flying being non-viable. Cost of the Isolation facility is one factor, but the sheer number of Crew required to operate (and who agree to operate) would be absurd. It would require a lot of 787 type ratings purely to get through COVID. A standard 4 day TOD would turn into 18.

This is where the Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They actually want Air NZ to keep flying to keep the freight channels open... people can talk about NZ being "self sufficient" all they want, but it doesn't happen overnight. If the MOH make the operation non-viable, will the Government dig deeper into the coffers to cover the additional costs?

Already, we're seeing Media articles (they love to stir the pot) questioning if an employer (not specifically Air NZ) could force employees to be tested... so the same applies, can we be forced to isolate in a Government run facility for 14 days everytime we go to work?

What ever happened to flatting the curve? Things are going to get incredibly messier the longer we keep pursuing elimination.... unless we close the borders entirely (which isn't lega) COVID will always find a way back. For example:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...with-traveller

Sorry Ollie I wasn't implying that you were having a go. I quoted you to discuss your comment about the Government but drifted in order to respond to those with an axe to grind.

We're all waiting for the updated procedures which we know are coming. Every single time there's an article in the paper about Crew something changes so we're all too used to it.
Hope to see some changes for International Crew. It's ironic that MOH are so strict on NZ crew while we're away, yet so lax on other crews laying over... the same way they've dropped the ball with border staff and isolation facility staff.

Truth is though, as I've said above, it's unlikely we'll ever eliminate it "permanently". Maybe 100 days here and there with rolling lockdowns, but given how contagious it is, combined with how mild the symptoms can be for so many people, it's incredibly likely it'll find it's way back eventually. I'd say we'll see a shift towards suppression after the election.... regardless of who's in power, and then we might stop seeing the Media wind ups every time a case crops up here and there. Just my personal opinion of course, I'm not expert on the subject, but I feel we should of stayed in Level 2 after the first wave, and Auckland should be level 2 not 3 now. Even if a Vaccine were available tomorrow, COVID wont be going away overnight.

All domestic crew and pax now to wear masks
Pax seated with distancing
Flight Attendant transmission from LA found to be the cause of the Bluff wedding cluster. (airline not stated)

What was the mockery of rational risk analysis glasses anyone, and conspiracy theories along with how could anyone else outside the company possibly rationalize something needed to be done.
IN YOUR FACE.

!6 days Delta without posting on this thread. See if you can increase the the time before the next posting.

Everyone in NZ now have to wear masks when on public transport.
Now that the requirement for masks is mandatory there is really no necessity for airlines to require distancing. No other public transport have this requirement.
The fight attendant transmission happened right at the beginning of the awareness of of covid when almost no procedures worldwide were in place.

Historically some of the rules for everyone else didn't always apply to Air NZ.

You obviously havent taken a bus lately

Oops! This didn't age well did it Delta?
All on board to wear masks. Amazing what a reversal of WHO advice will do huh?
Pax seated with distancing - GONE already. As if the empty middle seat circa 80cm complied with with the "two metre rule", or even the "one metre rule". Window dressing for the public, like 9/11 security. Someone made a rational, fact-based analysis obviously....
FA transmission the cause of Bluff cluster. NO SH!T! You did know that already right? That's old news. Late March was it? (BEFORE any measures were in place). It was AirNZ, as stated at the time. Hardly a cover-up. Relevance to now? NONE.

An example would be.....

It'd be better if you just were a little more honest with yourself about some glaring biases that you're carrying - I said be rational and I meant it....

#thedaysofcogentargurmentsaregone

Re. the 1 metre/ 2 metre / keep the middle seat empty stuff. The positive pressure within the aircraft was always seen as something that reduced risk of transmission (harder on short haul where the ratio of ground time, air con off to flight time, air con on will be greater). The distances in public are always going to be notional, as nobody in their right mind is going to do a randomised control trial to get an exact distance, plus the uncontrollable variables of wind, etc.

Let's just celebrate NZ's lack of deaths, a health service that hasn't been wrecked (in some countries over 10% of health staff have succumbed), and we have flights that can now be fully booked, at least providing more work and more revenue

Amen. I think the NZ response (aka Jacinda’s response) in a quickly changing environment with new information and recommendations constantly coming out has been world class.

Other countries want to be us. And I think Air NZ have played their cards correctly and fluctuated to meet the requirements and demands of the government, IATA, WHO, MOH, customers, shareholders and media...