Indigo and Virgin
I hear Bill is circling. A good time to take control. They have been loitering for years.
The Tiger brand would clearly remain under such ownership. Longer term would give them the option to increase its footprint, and for once, run by people who know what they are doing. It was Indigo who initiated the Tiger Australia launch in 2007 but lost its share in the IPO soon after. Would enable them to sell the 737 fleet to clear the a large chunk of debt. 500 A320/1 on order. Either they go it alone, or team up with SQ/Virgin who would have a tiny minority. |
*makes note to go & copyright AussieGo name under trade marks....:ok:
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If Virgin were to die, I think that’s where Indigo would come in, buy the below only, bring their own machines in.
Indigo would want the AOC, slots, terminals, branding, product, staff, Corp contracts, data. They wouldn’t want the aircraft or engineering. They will bring their own. That would suit the admin guys, as they can sell all Boeing assets. No doubt would get a half a billon dollar grant from one of the states with a wide range of incentives. That Alaska/JetBlue sort of model is exactly what they would go after. Largely the product and branding isn’t the issue here. It’s the balance sheet is just screwed beyond belief. If they can’t get Virgin, Bill will want his Tiger back. A dead Virgin will result in a large window of opportunity for the leisure pax. He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation. |
He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation. |
In regards to a Indigo Tiger only buyout, with a dead Virgin, September School Hols is a good time to kickstart. They would be able to pull some Neos out of Frontier to quickly start it up.
Pilots will probably need to take a ‘new startup’ pay cut 10-15% below JQ, but a job is a job. I think it’s certainly probable. They have the AOC, past Tiger ownership experience spin to bypass any government doubters, aircraft ready, Sydney slots. And Airbus Pilots at the ready. Tourism operators will be throwing a lot of cash around to boost their numbers, as well as States throwing hundreds of millions around with bazookas to protect egos. Win Win. |
He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots. The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years. |
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 10764474)
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots. The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years. |
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator. |
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 10764474)
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. I highly doubt that anyone from Jetstar or QF are going to resign from there to help a start up operator.
To get that to work you would have to import labour, probably another bunch of expats, whilst all the redundant Virgin Pilots are in the dole queue which isn't a good look politically. Once you have some operational experience, then CASA might let you expand and hire non rated pilots. The only 'quick' solution operationally will be with a 737NG, anything else will take years. They would buy the Tiger AOC and slots of the Administrators. They don’t need anything else, Tiger is largely a leased and contracted business. Out of everyone sitting on ‘the list’ to buy Virgin, they are the only one who would go down this path of pursuing the LCC. The A320 is still on the Tiger AOC. They will bring in their own leased A320s. They have 400+ on order. NEO AOC change is minimal. The previous Tiger Airbus rated Pilots are available. They don’t need to import Frontier Pilots in on reduced terms. 99% of Tiger Airbus Pilots will sign a deal tomorrow to join. It was Indigo’s call to start Tiger in 2007. They have had dialogue with the regulator here previously. |
And what would St Nick say about this proposal?
Liquidation FIRB National Interest My hunch... The scale of operation would have to be so compelling to negate the aforementioned considerations. The sum of Virgins parts are worth less than Velocity FF. How would this proposal gain the required creditor support, let alone the Canberra suits? |
And crewed by whom and on what AOC? Good luck getting CASA to allow a new type flown by noone with type experience. They would buy the Tiger AOC and slots of the Administrators. |
Why would anyone want a NEO?
halas |
Why on earth would anyone invest in Virgin, if Indigo wants a slice of the market they can just wait for Virgin to be wrapped up and poach the parts they want before starting a new operation with No debt.
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10764478)
99% of Tiger Airbus Pilots will sign a deal tomorrow to join.
|
Is this thread a joke? Are you all actually saying IndiGo would make a bid for Virgin? Anybody actually worked for IndiGo or understand old Wolfgangs grand Europe plan?
No offence but this is a pipe dream of epic proportions on many levels. |
Originally Posted by BO0M
(Post 10764562)
Is this thread a joke? Are you all actually saying IndiGo would make a bid for Virgin? Anybody actually worked for IndiGo or understand old Wolfgangs grand Europe plan?
No offence but this is a pipe dream of epic proportions on many levels. |
For clarity who are you guys actually talking about?
IndiGo (InterGlobe Aviation) or the Parent company? |
Indigo Partners, an American investment company, owner of Frontier Airlines and a bunch of other low cost carriers. Zilch zip nada to do with Indigo Airlines of India.
|
Indigo teamed up with Ryan Group in 2002 on the hunt to launch a LCC in Asia. They got SQ onboard and launched Tiger in 2004.
Now own have Frontier, Wizz, Volaris. 450 Neos on order. |
In today’s SMH claims Indigo offered to buy out EY/HNA/Nashan in 2018 who agreed but SQ/SRB wouldn’t let it happen
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PoppaJo: I have not seen the SMH story. My understanding is 1 of the 3 thought to be Nashan did not want to sell. This sank the plan as Indigo Partners were only interested in being a majority shareholder. Furthermore my understanding is SQ/SRB were not contacted.
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Would be good for a lot of the tiger boys and girls. For the majority of the virgin pilots, would mean starting at the bottom (again) and getting another endorsement (again). But that is the way the merry go round that is aviation works here. That would all depend on the size of the operation as well.
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Originally Posted by wishiwasupthere
(Post 10764580)
Indigo Partners, an American investment company, owner of Frontier Airlines and a bunch of other low cost carriers. Zilch zip nada to do with Indigo Airlines of India.
Anyway, my money is on West Farmers making a bid as long as that outstanding debt from JBs little VA experiment doesn't keep growing. |
I struggle to see any player having a few hundred million to spend on an airline considering there is no end in sight as to when we can fly again especially Indigo who have their fingers in multiple aviation pies surely they're even hurting. I think Deloitte are pushing s$%t up a hill and giving false hope to all.
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10764462)
If Virgin were to die, I think that’s where Indigo would come in, buy the below only, bring their own machines in.
Indigo would want the AOC, slots, terminals, branding, product, staff, Corp contracts, data. They wouldn’t want the aircraft or engineering. They will bring their own. That would suit the admin guys, as they can sell all Boeing assets. No doubt would get a half a billon dollar grant from one of the states with a wide range of incentives. That Alaska/JetBlue sort of model is exactly what they would go after. Largely the product and branding isn’t the issue here. It’s the balance sheet is just screwed beyond belief. If they can’t get Virgin, Bill will want his Tiger back. A dead Virgin will result in a large window of opportunity for the leisure pax. He could send 10-20 odd Neo’s downunder with a matter of months. Would be a very quick re-activation. |
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10764466)
In regards to a Indigo Tiger only buyout, with a dead Virgin, September School Hols is a good time to kickstart. They would be able to pull some Neos out of Frontier to quickly start it up.
Pilots will probably need to take a ‘new startup’ pay cut 10-15% below JQ, but a job is a job. I think it’s certainly probable. They have the AOC, past Tiger ownership experience spin to bypass any government doubters, aircraft ready, Sydney slots. And Airbus Pilots at the ready. Tourism operators will be throwing a lot of cash around to boost their numbers, as well as States throwing hundreds of millions around with bazookas to protect egos. Win Win. |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10764476)
It’s not a new type, it’s a re-engined A320. Anyone with an A320 type rating could read the FCOM, jump in and go.
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Originally Posted by Ragnor
(Post 10766476)
I struggle to see any player having a few hundred million to spend on an airline considering there is no end in sight as to when we can fly again especially Indigo who have their fingers in multiple aviation pies surely they're even hurting. I think Deloitte are pushing s$%t up a hill and giving false hope to all.
There will be winners and losers from this. Economic Darwinism and sound Management will prevail. The real arbiter of success in this brave new world of facemasks and TP hoarding is the banks. Money will be available; the banks will; back the winners, and the winners will thrive. I hope this resolves for VA people, and I believe Indigo is very well positioned to succeed.. |
Originally Posted by neilki
(Post 10767297)
where to put your phone....
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One step closer.
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Originally Posted by wheels_down
(Post 10764771)
Indigo teamed up with Ryan Group in 2002 on the hunt to launch a LCC in Asia. They got SQ onboard and launched Tiger in 2004.
Now own have Frontier, Wizz, Volaris. 450 Neos on order. For a start how many in VARA & Tiger fleets here with OZ rego ? The public wouldn't know the difference between an up to 20+ yo A320ceo (with new paint/interior) & a new A320neo. The former would probably come at 1/4 or less, of cost to buy/lease a neo, but with higher maintenance costs. They probably could do maintenance somewhere cheap in asia, where they might even fly to. (when you consider Alliance fly all their Fokker jets to Bratislava for heavy maintenance) |
20 year old 320 with wingtip fence, vs a 2020 build Neo.
The fuel saving is about 25%- 28% If Oil climbs above $100 later this decade, then they pay for themselves overnight. |
Originally Posted by BNEA320
(Post 10785568)
surely a big % of these neo orders will be postponed or cancelled, when so many A320 ceos being parked all over the world. How many ? 1000s maybe ? If not many 100s with stuff all demand.
For a start how many in VARA & Tiger fleets here with OZ rego ? The public wouldn't know the difference between an up to 20+ yo A320ceo (with new paint/interior) & a new A320neo. The former would probably come at 1/4 or less, of cost to buy/lease a neo, but with higher maintenance costs. They probably could do maintenance somewhere cheap in asia, where they might even fly to. (when you consider Alliance fly all their Fokker jets to Bratislava for heavy maintenance) Engineers have nightmares once they get to 10 years old let alone 20! |
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10785574)
There is a reason not many hang onto 20 year old Airbus machines. Because they are absolutely useless pieces of junk that can barely sit idle overnight without something going wrong. I wouldn’t even give them freighter conversions!
Engineers have nightmares once they get to 10 years old let alone 20! Look at Allegiant in USA. They bought a heap of old Mad Dogs for nothing (reportedly around US$1m each), didn't fly them hard, had lots of back up aircraft around the country, just in case. Used some for spares. (bit like Alliance & their old fokkers) They didn't even bother flying many at all on Tuesday, as why bother. Just say you could lease an 8 yo A320 for a 1/4 of a near new one. So you could have (nearly) 4 for price of 1 newish one. Plan to 3 flying with 1 backup is huge % & 3 x numbers of seats that can sell. 3 x the frequency. Nearly as statement is a bit simplistic & doesn't take into account other factors. |
Maybe stick to travel deals, not airline economics.
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Originally Posted by wishiwasupthere
(Post 10785579)
Maybe stick to travel deals, not airline economics.
|
Originally Posted by wheels_down
(Post 10785572)
20 year old 320 with wingtip fence, vs a 2020 build Neo.
The fuel saving is about 25%- 28% If Oil climbs above $100 later this decade, then they pay for themselves overnight. It was reported few years ago, that Southwests profits could be put down solely to their fuel hedging. |
Originally Posted by BNEA320
(Post 10785577)
(bit like Alliance & their old fokkers)
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Ref: Originally Posted by BNEA320 (bit like Alliance & their old fokkers)
Originally Posted by Buster Hyman
(Post 10785645)
No need to bring the Flight Attendants in on this! :=:p
Given, 'the Band' is back together, thought- include Original Band image- Ref (acknowledgement) the C/M- Murdock Press...... etc. etc. Original Band link here: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/...76f2?width=650 'Elwood' does appear 'somewhat'/ a tad 'peaky' for want of a term....!!!! Wow- Ripper...!!!! Rgds:cool::cool: S28- BE |
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