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-   -   Alan vs VA (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/630815-alan-vs-va.html)

wheels_down 23rd Mar 2020 03:08

Alan vs VA
 
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has issued a “call to action” to employees to lobby their local member of parliament to make sure smaller rival Virgin Australia gets no extra assistance to survive the current coronavirus crisis.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....d7a9826975fedd

What’s the issue here? Virgin gets a government loan. They pay it back within the specified timeframe. Qantas does not because it might still have a Billion bucks left over at the end. But it does not owe the government anything.

Its not free money, just more debt.

Alan loves competition apparently. Lives and breathes it. Well that’s what he told the ACCC.

Kiwiconehead 23rd Mar 2020 03:14

The man is a Northern Territory tourist campaign.

Sunfish 23rd Mar 2020 03:48

What a hypocritical whyte!

MELKBQF 23rd Mar 2020 03:55

What a horrible man. When we had a car manufacturing industry in this country, I never once saw the CEO Ford complaining that Toyota was given government assistance. The industry as a whole worked together.

Josh Cox 23rd Mar 2020 04:05

If the Australian Government purchased a share in VA (a new share allotment), that would knock the wind out of someones sails........(just speculating)...

777Nine 23rd Mar 2020 04:39

Wait, this is the guy that once went to the government asking for a secured loan? Pot, meet kettle.

michigan j 23rd Mar 2020 04:49


Originally Posted by 777Nine (Post 10724725)
Wait, this is the guy that once went to the government asking for a secured loan? Pot, meet kettle.

But they were only asking for a piffling $3 billion...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26445272

markontop 23rd Mar 2020 04:50

Before asking the Australian Government for a cash splash why not first ask the owners? Governments or controllers of Abu Dhabi, Singapore and China.

Stationair8 23rd Mar 2020 04:59

The other wood duck that needs a bit of a working over by VA staff is Karl Stefanovic on the Today show.
Seems to be bagging VA at every opportunity.


markontop 23rd Mar 2020 05:02

Well he would wouldn’t he. Got to keep that QANTAS club membership alive.

Dawn Patrol 23rd Mar 2020 05:12

Most of the employees would have mates in all companies across the industry. Doubt many would lobby to harm their buddies. Would hope so anyway...

dontgive2FACs 23rd Mar 2020 05:17

Certainly mean no ill for VA guys but I believe the premise of investing in the industry (ie both carriers) is completely fair.

Disregard the fact this is aviation for a moment. In these times, I wouldn’t support use of commonwealth funds to prop-up any business that had been poorly run.

Stretch06 23rd Mar 2020 05:57


Originally Posted by ampclamp (Post 10724750)
I can't see that request getting much traction from the majority of QAN employees. I think employees of all airlines here have more respect for their brothers and sisters at other airlines when times are tough than to actively seek their demise.

I agree. Doesn't matter who you are employed by at the moment, everyone is hurting. Mates across all major and minor carriers and in GA, all need to look after each other.

Paragraph377 23rd Mar 2020 06:01

Joyce is a psychopath and a self obsessed spineless toad. Psychopaths are found in greater proportions among CEOs. Between 3% and 21% of CEOs are probably psychopaths, according to a study by Bond University psychologist Nathan Brooks. The background rate of psychopathy in the normal population is about 1%. They are also gutless. Interestingly, the following CEO’s have recently stood down - IBM, Hulu, Disney, Uber, Microsoft, Nestle, T-mobile, Tinder, Juul, Harley, Nissan, MasterCard, Volkswagen, Victoria Secret, MGM, EBay Saleforce, LinkedIn and so it goes. All since December when COVID-19 started to ramp up. Why? They are taking the money and running. They can see what is coming and know that a financial ****storm of biblical proportions has landed on our doorstep.


George Glass 23rd Mar 2020 06:02

How soon people forget.
Virgin Blue buried Ansett.
Branson held a hanger party when it went bust.
AJ , whom I dislike , is simply doing what he’s paid for i.e. being the chief spruiker for his company.
He is pointing out the obvious, the same question that arose with Ansett , subsidise both or none at all.
Maybe a two airline policy , one government owned and one private ? Oh, wait a minute..........

cattletruck 23rd Mar 2020 06:06

Dear Alan,

Surprise! It's not all about you.

Ct.

TBM-Legend 23rd Mar 2020 06:09

George Glass for PM.....

Totally correct. VA hasn't made a cracker for 7 years, is owned by foreigners save a few mums and dads here. Living on loans and bleats. Why shouldn't Joyce rail against government funding if its only for them? What about the REX bleat from its foreign owner from Singapore? More threats...

dragon man 23rd Mar 2020 06:13

If Goyder had any spine he would tell the prick to issue a public apology or he would be sacked. Disgraceful behaviour, it doesn’t matter who owns the airline they are our fellow Australians and part of the larger aviation family.

unobtanium 23rd Mar 2020 06:19

It'll be a fair go if Chairman's Lounge is made illegal.

blubak 23rd Mar 2020 06:29


Originally Posted by deadc (Post 10724726)
Is anyone surprised? That's how the little one operates. How does he treat his own employees let alone the opposition?

His employees should be lobbying their local mp to allow them to use their leave & entitlements as they wish not how qantas wishes.
The world according to him,yet again.

John Citizen 23rd Mar 2020 06:38

Is Richard Branson any better?

September 2001


With Virgin Blue staff in tears in the background fearing Branson had taken Ansett's money, Branson was apparently about to confirm the bad news in a staged media event at the Virgin Blue terminal in Melbourne on September 4 . "Oh f... it, I'm only joking," he said suddenly as the cameras whirred, and tore a pretend $250 million Ansett cheque into pieces in a moment that dominated that night's Australian TV news. Eight days later, Ansett went into voluntary liquidation and the Branson empire banked the dividend.

markontop 23rd Mar 2020 06:44

Further he went on to say “this Virgin bride is not for sale” gush gush mumble mumble.
I guess now she can’t be given away?
Karma?

VH-ABC 23rd Mar 2020 07:14

And meanwhile us workers just want to work.

wondrousbitofrough 23rd Mar 2020 07:40

You know what? I've sat here for the last few days while you lot ignore the fact its hardly a level playing field to start with. Qantas has, and always will be, subsidised by the Australian government, despite the thin veil of being a private company. You look at the contracts they get, whether that be defence or civil and its clear that after Joe Public the Government are their second biggest customer. If AJ wants to whinge about Virgin asking for a bailout, maybe he should stop the boys club that has protected his pay check for so long.

George Glass 23rd Mar 2020 08:03

Um , wonderous , sit there grinding your teeth all you like but QF hasn’t had a monopoly on Government contracts for a long time. But a sense of grievance is always more powerful than fact isn’t it ?
The question that will have to be resolved at the end of this was whether or not deregulation of aviation was worth it.
The old Australian Airlines , Ansett duopoly was cosy , certainly , but in a nation of 25 million the size of Australia how many airlines do you need ?
Just as the US was contemplating re-regulation Australian crossed the Rubicon and plunged head long into an open market.
The Government , of both persuasions ,has been trying to convince itself that it was a good idea ever since. Jetstar , Tiger , $50 airfares Sydney - Melbourne .... brilliant!
But is it resilient?
Is it just robber baron capitalism dressed up as competition?
Is Globalization really the panacea for low grow ?
Or is it all going belly up under real stress ?
Like deconstructed airspace.
Or emasculated regulators.
Big fat chickens are coming home to roost.

neville_nobody 23rd Mar 2020 08:58


Just as the US was contemplating re-regulation Australian crossed the Rubicon and plunged head long into an open market.
Not in the true sense of a open market. One of the big issues in Australia has always been access to airports. Compass had problems with it, so did Virgin in the beginning. Add to that there are no secondary airports like in Europe or the USA. Sure anyone could come and fly here but you couldn't park an aeroplane anywhere. If you had 2 airports in every city in Australia aviation would be a very different business.

Giant Bird 23rd Mar 2020 09:07

Rubbish George
 
George it is BS that Virgin Blue buried Ansett. I was working in the corporate travel industry at the time and it was Qantas that buried Ansett. When they saw that Ansett was so weak they went for the jugular. They offered hard to refuse deals to every Ansett corporate customer they could. They stole every Ansett corporate customer they could irrespective of the profitability. Probably broke a few competition laws but never got caught. The day Ansett went belly up all the deals not signed went off the table in minutes. We had clients who tried to grab the Qantas deals the minute Ansett announced they were closing but Qantas refused. Qantas went after Virgin Blue by starting up JetStar to take away the LCC segment of the market that Virgin was in. Previously Qantas had been prepared to make route losses to drive Compass and Impulse to the wall. The demise of Ansett meant that the technique they had successfully used against Compass and Impulse was not working so they started an airline in the same segment as Virgin. Chris Corrigan who had bought into Virgin and outmaneuvered Branson then took Virgin upmarket in an attempt to give Qantas some of their own medicine. It looked like it was going to succeed at first but ultimately has not gained enough traction.

Sunfish 23rd Mar 2020 09:17

You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.

George Glass 23rd Mar 2020 09:26

Giant Bird , if you were corporate travel then you missed the point entirely. The government of the day never had the slightest intention of saving Ansett. It was determined to bust the duopoly , weaken the unions and bring down the cost of aviation for the average punter. Pure and simple. Virgin was the vehicle to make that happen. Three was a crowd. The weakest was allowed to fail. As for Corrigans “out manoeuvring” Branson , well that’s worked out well hasn’t it ? It was always a grand folly. Now its failed. Two premium airlines in a population of 25 million was a fantasy. The whole industry has been set up to fail by the decisions of successive governments over 20 years, no make that 30 , starting with Pilots Dispute.
Big fat chickens coming home to roost.

George Glass 23rd Mar 2020 09:32

Just saw your post Sunfish.
You are delusional.
The countries that will come out the best of this are , as always , the Germans , the Japanese and the Scandinavians. Because they have a clear , focused idea of what their national interest is. China Southern ? Emirates etc. What in the Dieties name are we doing letting them have unrestricted access to our market ? The shakeout of this across the world will be a comprehensive reassessment of how to secure the Nations interests.
Oh, and hope you travel insurance on your Business class jolly to Europe.
Good grief.

Green.Dot 23rd Mar 2020 09:43


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10724928)
You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.

Listen to you wise fish of all knowledge. Every single Qantas pilot wants every other airline pilot in the industry to keep their job. We don’t like what QF management do with a lot of things but don’t just make it seem like a trivial fact that 20000 people are being stood down. Ill say good luck to everyone, except you mate.

Ken Borough 23rd Mar 2020 10:24

Those in Qantas who wanted the demise of Ansett were the imports belonging to the Blue Team. I’ll never forget how some of them behaved when AN collapsed.

Rashid Bacon 23rd Mar 2020 10:38

Here’s the egg flip - if VA goes under, Jetstar won’t have a “raisin d’ętre” and could well be consigned to the scrap heap.

Lookleft 23rd Mar 2020 10:48


Jetstar won’t have a “raisin d’ętre” and could well be consigned to the scrap heap.
Ever since Borghetti took Virgin to full service Jetstar's original raison d'ętre (raisin d'etre is a French dessert I think)was completed. Their raison d'ętre now is to maintain QF's 60% market share so I don't think its going to the scrap heap anytime soon.

Bula 23rd Mar 2020 10:52

  • Incorrect. Different market, different price point.

blubak 23rd Mar 2020 21:24


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10724928)
You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.

Lots of very true facts in there sunfish,people need to see what has been removed & destroyed from all that used to be part of the airline.
What we have now are many suits telling the media exactly what they want to hear along with casuals,part timers,contractors & a diminishing full time workforce trying to make the jigsaw work every day.

tail wheel 23rd Mar 2020 22:24

For a preview on the cost of air travel post a Virgin/Tiger failure read this thread: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new...der-close.html

Flying SYD/PER may be cheaper via LAX/LHR/SIN?

The Government are in no doubt what a QF monopoly would do to domestic air travel in Australia.

markontop 23rd Mar 2020 22:33

With the muddled foreign airline ownership of VA, to thwart and stifle QF’s intrinsic monopolistic behaviour just let foreign airlines fly domestic. Even AIR NZ.
That should wind up the little Irishman. He won’t like dat. To be sure. Cue the “I still call Australia home” choir.

Chad Gates 23rd Mar 2020 22:52

I know everyone is stressed, but get a grip people. Listen to yourselves.

Led Zeppelin 23rd Mar 2020 23:36

I thought Joyce's comments were directed at even treatment by the government for all airlines, after a suggestion that VAH might be bailed out preferentially and re-capitalised.

Apart from the principal that governments should not be in the business of capitalising private airline operators, the reality is not good for VAH because of its pre existing perilous finance metrics.

QAN has the internal and external commercial financial resources to sustain a significant non flying period, but make no mistake, pilots will eventually be made redundant as it will take years to recover back to a pre COVID position.

It's impossible to know how VAH will emerge from this. Things can change daily.





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