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Mt Cook and Air Nelson contract
New contract tabled combining the two airlines into one. General concensus seems barely contained glee for the Nelson pilots and barely suppressed rage among the Cook boys and girls. How are those affected feeling about this?
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Originally Posted by clemfandango
(Post 10567780)
New contract tabled combining the two airlines into one. General concensus seems barely contained glee for the Nelson pilots and barely suppressed rage among the Cook boys and girls. How are those affected feeling about this?
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I think it’s bloody good! |
I’m no longer in the Link group but as an outsider looking in I find it hard to understand what the benefits are for the Pilots to combine the seniority lists. Can someone please explain what they are? Does big brother think it will help retain the Link Pilots with the promise of a jet job in the future (new course plan came out a few weeks back and everything is slowing down big time). With the issues the training department are having with the guys coming across to fly the jets there will soon be a sim ride and interview to assess suitability again. If I was a new joiner today, I’d get my time up on the ATR/Dash and jump to Virgin/Jetstar/JetConnect for a bit of experience then back to AirNZ. I understand there is a stand down period if you go that avenue but I’m pretty sure you’d get an interview well before your number comes up on the jets. Average retirements per year is currently 20-30 a year. How many years is it for a new joiner til they get to pole around a 320 or become a S/O on a wide body. Do the maths. Good luck. |
Swine lips.
Seems like classic divide and rule to me. Air NSN clearly frothing at all the gains and the Cook guys feeling gypped at their own meagre increases(losses in some cases) after months of showy promises. Bedlam if it doesn’t go through. I saw the contract today and it most certainly is a b scale obfuscated with some ‘blended’ bull**** that might take years to get in the ballpark. You’d be ripping off future hires no matter how you sell it to yourself. Lipstick on a swine. |
Originally Posted by fly real fast
(Post 10568941)
I’m no longer in the Link group but as an outsider looking in I find it hard to understand what the benefits are for the Pilots to combine the seniority lists. Can someone please explain what they are? Does big brother think it will help retain the Link Pilots with the promise of a jet job in the future (new course plan came out a few weeks back and everything is slowing down big time). With the issues the training department are having with the guys coming across to fly the jets there will soon be a sim ride and interview to assess suitability again. If I was a new joiner today, I’d get my time up on the ATR/Dash and jump to Virgin/Jetstar/JetConnect for a bit of experience then back to AirNZ. I understand there is a stand down period if you go that avenue but I’m pretty sure you’d get an interview well before your number comes up on the jets. Average retirements per year is currently 20-30 a year. How many years is it for a new joiner til they get to pole around a 320 or become a S/O on a wide body. Do the maths. Good luck. The career pathways initiative is definitely just a showpiece from the company to stop regional pilots leaving the group and only benefiting a certain few as it currently is. Some of which are treating it as a holiday and subsequently failing the training. |
Originally Posted by clemfandango
(Post 10568987)
Seems like classic divide and rule to me. Air NSN clearly frothing at all the gains and the Cook guys feeling gypped at their own meagre increases(losses in some cases) after months of showy promises. Bedlam if it doesn’t go through. I saw the contract today and it most certainly is a b scale obfuscated with some ‘blended’ bull**** that might take years to get in the ballpark. You’d be ripping off future hires no matter how you sell it to yourself. Lipstick on a swine. I don’t know which ‘Cook’ guys you’re talking to but is definitely not the only view held within the ranks. The guys who have been around a while clearly stated we want more time at home and roster/contract improvements. Has that occurred? Well you have the contract. I’m sure you can make your mind up. Have you noticed who the new hires are going to be? Did you read the bit about ‘graduate pilots’? Once that’s approved by CAA, thats where the vast majority will be coming from. Do you have an issue with the remuneration that they’ll receive for the first year or so? |
Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
(Post 10569470)
The benefit is becoming employed by Air NZ. It’s that simple. Both the Nelson and Cook AOC’s are going to Air NZ in Nov and early next year. Without merging into one regional group within Air NZ both airlines will operate under service agreements with Air NZ aka contractors aka Jetconnect. The career pathways initiative is definitely just a showpiece from the company to stop regional pilots leaving the group and only benefiting a certain few as it currently is. Some of which are treating it as a holiday and subsequently failing the training. Aren't Mount Cook and Air Nelson subsidiaries atm anyway? Very much like Jetconnect? |
I haven’t seen the contract, only the new payscales, and I do think it’s a bit strange to have a blended rate. At Air New Zealand, we have a blended rate on the 777 to allow for -200/300 variants, the same will most likely occur for the 787 when we operate both -9&10 variants. This is because Pilots on type actually operate all variants. We don’t, for example, blend the A320 rates with Widebody rates just because they’re on the same AOC, so why do it for the links? I appreciate there’s a bit of a first day lottery between fleets when joining the regionals but the same is true at Air New Zealand. If there’s a combined regional seniority list, then surely pilots can move between fleets as vacancies and seniority allows? |
Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10569559)
What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them. |
Originally Posted by Icemansteeve
(Post 10569561)
For someone across the pond currently going through the interview process (I'm aware where this question is being asked), what sort of time period are we talking about for progressing to a jet from link?
Sure a jet is not the be all to end all, but at the same time it's nice to know what could be given time. Over 10 years if you join the links now to be a second officer on the jet |
The ad says type rated dash and ATR pilots. No mention of time on type. So they want you to pay for your own rating? Or are they just trying to poach people from Qlink and Virgin?
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Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10569559)
What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them. |
Originally Posted by fly real fast
(Post 10570063)
They wouldn’t have a wide body command yet. Current crop of 787 skips have been 24 years! Your point is noted though |
Originally Posted by wantobe
(Post 10569503)
Aren't Mount Cook and Air Nelson subsidiaries atm anyway? Very much like Jetconnect?
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Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10569559)
What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them. A few can’t even get through the IPT let alone pass a Jet command check, I don’t think we need to worry ;) |
Originally Posted by captsf
(Post 10570230)
A few can’t even get through the IPT let alone pass a Jet command check, I don’t think we need to worry ;) I believe Air NZ ALPA members are shortly voting on an amendment to the CEA which tightens the wording to prevent the thought of any such PG. But we won’t let that get in the way of a good yarn.... |
Looks like your effort was a failure clemfandango....
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For a Q driver that is directly affected, I am all in really for this contract. Yes i wish the pay divide was addressed as im still earn $12k less than an FO at the same level flying the ATR and skippers are still earning a lot less. The blended scale that will be adopted has its issues but it is what it is, new emoyees dont have to sign it if they dont want the job. Eventually when a certain percentage of the fleet is mostly ATR then we migrate to the ATR payscale that is kept for current atr pilots. Conditions are good, security is good. Long term its good. If this doesnt get passed I dont like the idea of the alternatives from big brother ie: possible service level agreement... Is it a threat not really its just the way it goes with bith flerts joining the Air NZ AOC. With this deal everyone is still getting more money (not much more but its still a rise) and good conditions
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Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
(Post 10570239)
You’re right. No need to worry. You’ll know as well as anyone that the seniority between Jet and Regional isn’t merging, nor was that ever proposed. Added to the bottom was the initial aim. I believe Air NZ ALPA members are shortly voting on an amendment to the CEA which tightens the wording to prevent the thought of any such PG. But we won’t let that get in the way of a good yarn.... |
Originally Posted by dctPub
(Post 10571825)
Ha! Classic f**k you I've got mine mentality. Yea just go ahead and join a multitude of other regional carriers flying around New Zealand.
This classic stitch up has been seen many times around the world and the geniuses down under discovered they can kill the unborn for their own gain. |
Originally Posted by Thewnz
(Post 10571533)
For a Q driver that is directly affected, I am all in really for this contract. Yes i wish the pay divide was addressed as im still earn $12k less than an FO at the same level flying the ATR and skippers are still earning a lot less. The blended scale that will be adopted has its issues but it is what it is, new emoyees dont have to sign it if they dont want the job.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought |
Originally Posted by pisstin broke
(Post 10572070)
Rest assured that ALPA will always act in the interests of one particular pilot group, and it ain't either of the Links
Sometimes it’s better to take a deep breath and reflect on what is/has been going on rather than shoot from the hip |
seems to me that ALPA has looked after the links a little too much
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Originally Posted by Fush n Chups
(Post 10572307)
I'm sorry but the same could also be said when you were given the Air Nelson contract, no one forced you to sign along the dotted line.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought |
Originally Posted by Fush n Chups
(Post 10572307)
I'm sorry but the same could also be said when you were given the Air Nelson contract, no one forced you to sign along the dotted line.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought |
Chill out
I’ve never heard such rubbish, why are you making it sound so doom and gloom if this doesn’t get over the line. All that happens is they go back to the drawing board and divvy the money up more fairly then it goes back out to the vote. Keep in mind Air Nz is still making huge profits. I don’t think you understand negotiations if you think the first offer is the best one, look at our engineers as an example.
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Originally Posted by go123
(Post 10572530)
I’ve never heard such rubbish, why are you making it sound so doom and gloom if this doesn’t get over the line. All that happens is they go back to the drawing board and divvy the money up more fairly then it goes back out to the vote. Keep in mind Air Nz is still making huge profits. I don’t think you understand negotiations if you think the first offer is the best one, look at our engineers as an example.
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Yup, we sure will. Individual bargaining is further down the track, don’t fret Aviator |
Originally Posted by fly real fast
(Post 10572340)
Isn’t ALPA trying to look after the Links by Career pathways, joining of the seniority lists, Links getting directly into the Jets without interviews etc? Sometimes it’s better to take a deep breath and reflect on what is/has been going on rather than shoot from the hip Link pilots - know your place. |
Originally Posted by pisstin broke
(Post 10572807)
Why is there a scope clause in the ANZ Alpa pilot's contract? Who was it specifically designed to exclude from operating jets.
Link pilots - know your place. |
Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
(Post 10573144)
Not sure what your point is. Superiority complex anyone? |
Originally Posted by pisstin broke
(Post 10573153)
Irony is kinda lost on you Kiwi
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Can't really blame them for having a scope clause given the history of Freedom, BAe146 at Mount Cook and Zeal320. Makes a lot of sense. Just hope everyone can see the bigger picture and the long term.
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Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone?? For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals? Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes? Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join? |
The GOP is dead
The GOP is dead, it will never get ratified. Let’s just leave it at that. The current set up is the best we are going to get. Guess what happens when Air NZ jet starts hiring in 2 years? The links won’t release any pilots because of manpower and externals will be hired, the new 80/20 ratio will take care of your number. If we have to reinterview for the role then so be it. If you want to fly a jet so badly then don’t stay at the links, man up and leave and you’ll end up starting at Air NZ before all of us if that’s what you want. |
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
(Post 10573260)
Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone?? For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals? Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes? Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join? Do do we want to be a Group Airline? Well the company’s already decided that’s happening. Which is why Cook and Nelson support staff are currently being made redundant. |
Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er
(Post 10573163)
Ok. Forgive me, but, that kind of comment seems to be a commonly held view at the jet fleet. And those guys aren’t trying to be ironic. The clause is to tighten up our contract so that no said, ‘loyal’ pilots can try and jump positions, it’s only for our piece of mind, as discussed before, the discussion in link flightdecks in the early stages of pathways about PG’s and original DOJ spooked us. (They only have themselves to blame). Unfortunately some of these people who were wanting to hold out till their “Bus command came up” (apparently the FO role was beneath them), are now having a bit of trouble getting through the training and it looks like we might be heading back to more in-depth screening which we had previously. (I wish no ill will on any one btw) but If you’re looking for superiority complexes, you are looking in the wrong place... |
Originally Posted by ElZilcho
(Post 10573260)
Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone?? For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals? Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes? Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join? On the flip side I don't really feel any sympathy for current jet pilots that left NZ to chase the big money overseas that was a decision they made knowing full well that the door back home might shut. While guys who have been working within the links for 5+ years are being severely disadvantaged and big brother is actively excluding people contributing to the companies success and rewarding deserters. Well yes it is a smart business move (only in the short term) but it's extremely disheartening for current employees and leading to continual high turn over rates which is creating a bottleneck where pilots can't be released because of shortages and actually causing the company to sink big money into continuously training pilots to refill roles. We all know the GOP will never happen and these recent link fossil's that walked in without an interview have ruined it for everyone else behind them by underperforming and failing or needing extra training. The interview should have been left in place that way only people who seriously wanted to join the jets would have applied and not created such a massive back long, now current link pilots are staring down the barrel of 10+ years in regional before transferring across. |
Originally Posted by captsf
(Post 10573526)
the discussion in link flightdecks in the early stages of pathways about PG’s and original DOJ spooked us. (They only have themselves to blame). |
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