It would be foolish for Qantas pilots to vote this down. It will be flown under the TandCs that QF have proposed regardless of the vote. Surely you want to lock those conditions in to a EBA that is accessible for all Qantas pilots? Rather than the plan B which is having to work for a separate crewing company.

Qantas will get A350s on their AOC.

The aircraft are coming, the sims will be at mascot, DT (or his successor) will be CP and the training and A330/A350 fleet managers will all be working at Mascot.....just like the current 737 arrangement with jetconnect.

Jetconnect pilots are mainline pilots. The only difference is the pay difference every fortnight. This will be the same. And it's not rocket science to see that if it's voted down any future aircraft will never be on the EBA.

It would be crazy to not vote this up and get the aircraft locked in for the QF pilots.

Are you agreeing with DirectAnywhere's comment?

Lots of Angel bull dust being sprinkled !

I assume using a contract company would lose the efficiencies of mixed fleet 330/350 flying. Surely this is worth something in negotiations?

Go back through my history, you’ll find I’ve been around a lot longer than any angel you speak about.

As a QF pilot with a career in front of me, if any QF pilot votes this down, they are fools. Anyone who has worked outside of QF during the LWOP period recently will totally understand how good QF is, how good this deal is!

we vote no, what are we going to have.

747’s
A380’s.
A330’s.
787’s.

3/4 won’t be there in 8-10 years time.

then we’re left with a dozen or so 787’s.

400k plus for a captain
300k plus for an fo.

show that to your mates who don’t work in aviation, and if you don’t have mates outside of work, I suggest you get some and gain some life perspective.

Did that for the 787. Doesn’t seem to have worked out that well so far...

In those lovely words at the beginning of the movie ‘Battle of Britain’: ‘We’ve learnt that Herr Hitler’s guarantees, guarantee NOTHING’

I have yet to meet a single Qantas 787 pilot who doesn't like the package.

Hitler lost the war and committed suicide, and is also know for being the biggest arsehole in history......over to you AJ!

I would strongly advise you guys at Qantas to vote yes. if AJ does what he says he's going to do, then I'll gladly accept a DEC. I've done the rounds at QantasLink, Qatar & now China Southern. I know how good you guys have it.

If I understand correctly the only major roadblock in negotiations is the pay rates of future new hire S/O’s.

So if a future pilot is employed as an S/O on the 787 or 350 and they then bid to the 380 as an S/O instead of going onto the really good wicket ($250k+) they’ll remain basically on current 787 conditions?

Is that right? Because if it is it’s how it should be. Correcting that mistake is essential, it’s ludicrous to pay what is essentially an entry level job that amount of money.

I remember prior to the last EBA when discussing the new 787 S/O conditions there were some dismissing it as so bad no one would bother applying for a job.

Well heaps of people applied, far more than positions available. Captains on widebody jets overseas applied in their dozens. I don’t think there’ll be much trouble attracting applicants for an operation proposed under these new offered conditions.

The proposed SO pay also tops out at 4 years. It wasn't that long ago that FO737 SYD took 9 years.

People have short memories.

Most occupations don’t have a pay rise per year beyond CPI/3% just because you’ve been there additional years.

It’s fairly simple. Look at the pay rate offered and plan your finances on that. With what they’re proposing new hire pilots (academy grads, GA pilots working in the bush on half that pay) aren’t going to say no to that deal just because the pay rises top out after 4 years and they can’t make $250k as a 380 SO.

I’m undecided about the whole EBA itself but that aspect of it won’t be an issue in attracting new recruits.

None I’ve met are happy about night credits or overtime. Also remember it’s hardly running at full lines atm.

Never, EVER forget that people voted for a 30% pay cut to get the 787 flying. And strongly hinted by the company, do that and it would be the future. Personally I believe anyone who voted for that package was a complete muppet but nonetheless, it got up.

Now pilots are being asked - strike that - TOLD to take a 25% pay cut or they won’t get any flying at all.

Anyone looking at the situation differently needs to go and check the Unicorns haven’t escaped from the back paddock to raid the pixie dust trough!

Interesting times ahead.

Doesn’t fairwork, etc stop this crewing company kinda thing?

Will the next step be we are setting up an overseas company to fly the aircraft as fatigue rules here won’t allow the operation.

Next step Red Q (insert country).

Nope can’t seem that happening either, CASA will allow the operation and you will come to an agreement.

My 2c is that we need to sit back, take some of the emotion out of it, and think about what the credible bargaining positions are on both sides. I think that it is clear that the A350-1000 is coming, no matter what - Qantas have changed their tune from 'sign up, or no planes' to 'sign up, or we hire someone else'. The threat to scrap Sunrise seems like it's off the table, so I'm not worried about that.

The threat to employ pilots for Sunrise through a different entity seems credible. Qantas has form, and there're a stack of pilots about to come onto the market. On the Fairwork point, I expect they'd argue that this is new flying, not outsourcing existing work. And, now that they've made the threat and attached it to a clear trigger (not getting the EA up), they'd lose a lot of credibility with pilots, AIPA, financiers etc if they piked. What's the downside for Qantas, if it follows through?

• It loses (even more) faith with pilots, and the various consequences that follow (increased sick leave, fuel burn, work-to-rule etc)? Qantas has been there before, and doesn't seem too concerned about that - the fact that they've gone nuclear in both the Sunrise and the JQi negotiations makes that reasonably clear, at least for me.
• Perhaps Qantas would be more concerned if it started to cop heat publicly, to the point that it hurts ticket sales or loyalty. That seems possible to me - there's been a few stories recently about Qantas strongarming QFi, JQi, Perth Airport and Rex, so a perception might set it. But, we're not exactly a publicly-sympathetic group, when base salary on offer for an SO is about twice the average annual income. So, maybe Qantas thinks it could tough it out, if it came to that.
• And would QF lose the benefit of dual-crewing on the A330/A350? I suppose they would, but I'd wonder if that's pretty marginal to the business case.

To my mind, this one all turns on whether Qantas' threat is credible. If it is, then we're in all-or-nothing poker when it comes to the vote. I think they're using bully tactics and trashing any goodwill. But, I also think they're not bluffing and hold better cards.

SA - I would make an educated guess that it's a credible threat.

1 - Joyce has turned Qantas into a company with an inner culture of bullying. Which I never thought could be possible.

2 - He, personally, has a penchant for out of the box bullyboy tactics and has followed through. He proved he was _such_ a BIG and IMPORTANT little man when (amongst other things) he held the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting to ransom in 2011.

3 - He will personally be licking his chops at the adulation he will receive if he can put (another one) over the pilots by all the sector 7g drones who detest (and I mean detest) what pilots get paid. No they haven't the faintest clue what pilots do, no they don't understand the job but the level of rage is off the charts.

4 - He is, if nothing else, an egotistical (and loathsome, uninspiring, incompetent at business) and generally insipid little creep who would NOT have broadcast a threat like that without very sound reasons that he won't be made to later look a fool.

The clincher for me is that there is no point whatsoever thinking even for a second that it might not be worth fighting in every way possible because the risks to the pilot body and every GA/Flying Doctor in the country are extreme. If this little stunt does see the light of day the floodgates will open and I can foresee that it would never financially stack up for any Australian to ever become a pilot. The costs to start would be too high (compared to lessons in Bangladesh) and the chances of anything like a career would be too low (cheaper to import pilots from overseas) for anyone to 'make' it. It's too important to just roll over and play dead a la the 787 nonsense 30% pay cut we asked for.

FedSec #1086 post is, as usual, very wise counsel.

Don’t worry about the overseas pilots taking your jobs...worry about the ones within your ranks. When it comes to the crunch, pilots don’t stick together.

Agree, and I hope we can apply enough pressure to get a decent EA for mainline pilots to fly it.

But, my fear is that if we fight too hard, Tino et al will just go ahead and outsource the flying - which I think would be an even worse outcome than keeping it in-house on mediocre conditions. It'd create a precedent and a credible threat for everything future negotiation.

I know that fear and pressure is exactly what Joyce and Tino want, but I don't think it's imaginary or a bluff this time (unlike some of the previous cries, in 2011 and what followed).

The other scenario is it gets voted up then the ULH magically disappears along with the A380 and 744. 3 years is a long time in aviation.