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Tiger EBA approved
16% rise quoted..... 5hrs rolled into the base rate
Captains now on $215,000 Good to hear if it is in fact the win it was described to be. https://amp.theaustralian.com.au/bus...m58TLH_lDXpjwo |
All eyes now on the competitor who is in early negotiations and it’s going to be a long long ride folks get the popcorn ready.
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Well done boys and girls! Cobham and now Tiger have had significant corrections to their EA’s and all it took was a cohesive pilot body. This is the time airlines feared the most, and one they denied would ever happen. Good start!! |
Looking forward to seeing how JQ screw this up.
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Originally Posted by InZed
(Post 10491519)
The boys and girls at VANZ must be spewing now that they’ve accepted the line from the company that there’s no more money for their pay rise... Your information seems to be widely off the mark. Vanz CEA currently out for ratification. |
Can’t imagine why the VANZ guys would be spewing. The money on offer in the CEA being ratified is very decent. The extra days off look good too. |
So the Tiger base pay is higher than Jetstar, their overtime cuts in at 60 hours versed 75 hours at JQ and they don’t do RNP or CAT 3 and they don’t fly 220 seats - WTF? |
Originally Posted by rowdy trousers
(Post 10491923)
So the Tiger base pay is higher than Jetstar, their overtime cuts in at 60 hours versed 75 hours at JQ and they don’t do RNP or CAT 3 and they don’t fly 220 seats - WTF? In a few years time half the fleet is going to be A321. |
This is a good deal, it will look even better when J* totally fu*K's over the pilot group in the new EBA negotiations. The JANZ group is totally fractured and not united so will be easy pickings for the Company.
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J*NZ
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 10492489)
This is a good deal, it will look even better when J* totally fu*K's over the pilot group in the new EBA negotiations. The JANZ group is totally fractured and not united so will be easy pickings for the Company.
J*NZ is not a huge base (but no idea how many A/Cs they operate).....and they are not united? Would you care to explain?.......their EBA is due for renewal early next year. |
I wasn't just referring to the J*NZ pilots (who are 90% unionised and pretty cohesive). The problem with Jetstar is that in the Australian operation we have two major Union groups both of who seem to detest each other and can't present a united from in negotiations so the company with ease plays one off against the other. You also have a proportion of pilots who don't belong to either union group and seem to just act out of total self interest, the company has shown over the last couple of negotiations that they simply play one group off against the other. The fact that J* NZ also exists is a problem, the Aussie pilots quite happily work within the NZ operation with impunity whilst restricting the NZ pilots from undertaking ANY work in Australia, when Jetstar NZ was undertaking industrial action and the union in Australia was approached for a show of support not only did they say 'nothing to do with us', a number of their members then volunteered to operate in NZ during the industrial action and prevented the local FO's from partaking in that action as it 'wasn't their problem'. Recently one of the Australian unions approached the NZ union and queried if there was an appetite for a group seniority list and some of the Aussie FO's were feeling a bit aggrieved that NZ FO's were getting commands in 3 years and that they didn't have access to them, the offer was that they may be happy for the Jetstar NZ pilots to join the bottom of their list in return for a lifting of the restriction on NZ pilots operating in Australia............. gee, that seems like a good deal. So all in all the JANZ pilot group has a lot of competing interests that the company has exploited to ensure they keep passing sub par deals on both sides of the Tasman, I can't see that changing anytime soon, just look at the latest J* company update where they company openly states that talks with one union group are progressing well as they are being realistic whilst with the other group things have stalled due to their unrealistic demands.
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Except one of the unions is the major union with a majority of members. The other is is lucky to scrape up a few dozen. |
It certainly is remarkable what a unified pilot group can achieve. It’s called solidarity and JQ and VA pilots should take note given their ongoing and upcoming negotiations..... |
Whoda thunk that Tiiiger would become one of the best paid and solid terms and rosters??? Indeed well done. No doubt it will reflect with the dedication and effort of the boys up the front. Whoops sorry PC incorrect there, the boys and girls up the front, probably PC incorrect there tooooo... But seriously well done. Will this be the sign of things changing in Oz? Yes I doubt it! |
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this. |
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10493470)
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this. Its likely to get ugly. Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities. No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends. |
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 10493476)
Its likely to get ugly.
Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities. No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends. Whilst management may try to hold the line, after all they are used to getting things their way, they are on the wrong side of the trade. The reality that airlines are yet to accept, indeed many pilots also refuse to believe that demographics are driving this gradual reduction in pilot supply. The second order effect is that their adversarial IR approaches have dissuaded more potential pilots form investing in a career. Their approach will not waver until the reality of shortages means cancellation and frequency rates are harder and harder to maintain. Whether it is 'training academies' pilotless aircraft or even corporate welfare, airlines will continue to try to hold the status quo. There is abundant evidence of upwards pressure on terms and conditions if one bothers to look and kudos to the pilots involved for calling the bluff. 3% is not the upper bound of remuneration outcomes. |
Originally Posted by PoppaJo
(Post 10493470)
Jetstar are looking at a 15-20% odd increase in its Pilots Wage Bill should it try to better the Tiger offer by 2-3%. No executive is going to agree to this. It it doesn’t look like they’ll have much of a choice! What excuses could company negotiators possibly come up with? With the JQ crews’ contributions to Years of Record group profits, (and record executive bonuses), and now paid well below comparable pilots in another company, then add in all the aforementioned productivity improvements (RNP, A321, etc). There are now perfectly valid reasons for JQ pilots to be a little bit peeved, and hopefully energized ‘industrially’. Well done Tiger pilots. You’ve demonstrated what a bit of unity, with a dash of fortitude and courage will get you. |
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 10493476)
Its likely to get ugly.
Fact is JQ flies the largest NB aircraft in Aus, with the most seats, the longest distances, have the least days off and likely do the most sectors of any 180 seat+ airline in Australia. The pay needs to start reflecting that. Great work to Tiger, congrats to them. I hope JQ uses this as a springboard to push for real changes, because anything that even breaks even with Tiger will be an insult in my eyes, no disrespect to the fine crew of Tiger. Simply a reflection of the realities of different operation with different capabilities. No doubt there will be threats by management to close the place down. Will there be unity? I sure hope so. Tiger proved that unity can deliver real dividends. To get that over the line would probably result in the biggest IR movement ever seen. But can be done! |
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I do hope you are right, but as someone with experience of the Qantas Groups attitude to negotiations I suspect 15-25% rises are as likely as us seeing a huge fleet of Uber air taxis flying around Melbourne next year. Even in the good times Qantas management sticks doggedly to the ‘no more than 3% per year total contract cost’, couple this with their ability this year to site softening pax figure, volatile fuel prices and an uncertain global economic outlook, I think it is tough times ahead for the negotiators.of course a bit of airline wide industrial action may help focus the minds, but as I have said, getting all pilots to join is unlikely, and of course they have many other pilot resources amongst the group to leverage their position. How about revoking the ‘active hold’ status for Mainline of any pilot who partakes in industrial action, using Jetstar NZ pilots to fly some routes during industrial action, farming out work to Network, Eastern etc or indeed returning capacity to Mainline along with offering positions to non-striking pilots. Are we so certain the ‘group’ pilots will stick together for the common good....... I truely hope that something good comes from the negotiation, history would tell us otherwise. |
My concern with the Tiger EBA is the 2.5%. It's only a bit less than the "standard" 3% but over a 20-40 year career it can add up. Hopefully next Tiger EBA it will improve. |
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 10494171)
I do hope you are right, but as someone with experience of the Qantas Groups attitude to negotiations I suspect 15-25% rises are as likely as us seeing a huge fleet of Uber air taxis flying around Melbourne next year. Even in the good times Qantas management sticks doggedly to the ‘no more than 3% per year total contract cost’, couple this with their ability this year to site softening pax figure, volatile fuel prices and an uncertain global economic outlook, I think it is tough times ahead for the negotiators.of course a bit of airline wide industrial action may help focus the minds, but as I have said, getting all pilots to join is unlikely, and of course they have many other pilot resources amongst the group to leverage their position. How about revoking the ‘active hold’ status for Mainline of any pilot who partakes in industrial action, using Jetstar NZ pilots to fly some routes during industrial action, farming out work to Network, Eastern etc or indeed returning capacity to Mainline along with offering positions to non-striking pilots. Are we so certain the ‘group’ pilots will stick together for the common good....... I truely hope that something good comes from the negotiation, history would tell us otherwise. |
It’s never stopped them before. |
The market has finally shifted and probably the largest change seen in the low cost space. 3% isn’t going to cut it. Tiger has set the new going rate. Jetstar has always paid more than Tiger. Getting a deal over the line that is 10-15% less than Tiger is going to upset a lot of people. It will create a very fractured pilot body. |
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasn’t figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill). This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10494735)
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasn’t figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill). This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement. Would you still be doing 75 hours per month to their 60 for that figure? That’s still a pretty huge discrepancy. |
65 hrs and 220K would be fairly palatable fir most of the pilot group I think. There will be many who say this is not enough, but they only need 51% yes vote after all. |
Would be better than QF S/Haul rate of 195,756 (Year 1 Captain, but 18 years in the company) for 58 hours
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Originally Posted by Daylight Robbery
(Post 10494890)
Would be better than QF S/Haul rate of 195,756 (Year 1 Captain, but 18 years in the company) for 58 hours
That’s great, why don’t you try using Year 4 figures for a start. Even with Jetstar on a hypothetical 220k + high line + DTA + 65 threshold, a Jetstar Pilot would only be ahead until a Year 4 QF S/haul pilot did five hours overtime. Then every hour after that QF is ahead; and gaining substantially. Remembering this would be 2019 figures for JQ vs 2017 for QF. QF’s about to be new EBA will see them even further ahead and that’s with Jetstar pilots more efficient in almost every aspect. |
I was pointing out the hourly rate at 220k for 65 hours would be higher than the QF Year 1 737 rate. That is a fact.
QF gets a DTA, but I assume JQ would keep theirs, too |
Originally Posted by Daylight Robbery
(Post 10495223)
I was pointing out the hourly rate at 220k for 65 hours would be higher than the QF Year 1 737 rate. That is a fact.
QF gets a DTA, but I assume JQ would keep theirs, too You also need to add two lots of 3% to your figures to bring QF up to 2019 (latest EBA negotiations reflect this) |
Everyone seems to think that PIA will be pickets and lockouts. Fortnightly stop work meetings will get the point across. |
It will be, the Qantas pilots were locked out for wearing ‘red ties’ and making ‘PA’s’. Stop work meetings will certainly illicit a response and also rely a very high participation amongst the crew, it will get nasty. I was part of a large airline when the pilots filed for industrial action and we all promptly got letters from the company requiring that we indicated if we intended to take part so that they could arrange the with holding of pay for the potential lock out period. Funnily enough quite a few union members told the union that they wouldn’t be going on strike and were dismissed from the union. |
The way I read it is you can’t be locked out for a stop work meeting. The company can’t pay us, and we can’t accept payment for the period of the meetings, as long as it’s less than 4 hours. It would be interesting to get clarification on this should it come to it. I maintain a measured amount of optimism it won’t. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10494735)
As a JQ pilot I would be happy if they rolled the high line allowance into base pay (company hasn’t figured out how the use the available days anyway) and give the company more standby coverage for an increase in base pay (which the company would go for as it would reduce their WDO bill). This would hopefully have NB capt 220K base plus 3% increases per annum for the life of the agreement. |
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat
(Post 10495368)
Why? If they don't move the efa threshold then you're still on less than a tiger captain. Any agreement that doesn't see jq ahead simply makes no sense to me given the increased productivity.
We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which won’t be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line. Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves. |
When was the last time one Qantas Group EBA was markedly improved while the rest got standard 3% pay and a few job specific concerns addressed? Genuinely curious. Tiger has a whopping 2 EBAs and the Virgin Group in general seems to be much less adversarial between work groups. Pilots striking and the company acquiescing to 15% -justifiable or not- seems fanciful when with 6 months you’ll have a company wide shut down...again. |
Your missing the point. The point here is the market’s going rate for a LCC Pilot in this country has shifted. You have been underpaid and the Tiger pilot body has fixed that. This is also happening in retail. Woolworths/Wesfarmers are in the process of new Agreements for all its businesses. They are all 10-15% increases over previous awards. It’s the largest shift in the sector ever seen. Woolworths now has a multi hundred million dollar wage increase to absorb. Fly for Jetstar and work 10% harder, fly 25% more people and get paid 15% less than your competitor who isn’t profitable and is operated more as a ultra low cost carrier. |
Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE
(Post 10495379)
I’m just being realistic. We all know how it will go. The company will offer us roughly the same agreement plus 3% which will be voted down, then an agreement which won’t be great but will get enough of the pilot group to vote yes for it to get across the line. Those that think a bit of PIA is going to make the company roll over and give us a 20% pay rise are kidding themselves. The current coverage won’t cut it and so it’ll be in the interest of Jetstar to get this EBA over the line and to do that it’ll need to be competitive. Otherwise they’ll find a rolling NO vote and box themselves into a corner with NEOs fast approaching and a current inflexible EBA for intl ops. |
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