Having spoken one on one with reps from AIPA and AFAP I can tell you that walking into the negotiating room and complaining that we are getting paid below ‘market rate’ isn’t going to get us anywhere.

I agree that we should be able to argue that with a larger proportion of our fleet becoming A321s we should be remunerated accordingly. The company line is that pay rises will be 3% + efficiency gains. Flying 18 more aircraft with higher MTOWs and 50 more seats is a huge efficiency gain.

That + some extra $$ in exchange for more stand by coverage should get us a better deal.

A realistic attitude will get us further as a pilot group because it is worth remembering what we are up against. The Qantas IR machine won’t rollover and reward an employee group for taking PIA. In fact, they would probably love the opportunity to make an example of an employee group that holds the company to ransom.

PIA is the nuclear option if the company doesn’t bargain in good faith, not the weapon of choice as some believe. Those in the telegram app group chat who are beating the war drums about PIA (when the current EBA hasn’t even expired yet) are simply embarrassing themselves.

What’s a realistic attitude? Give us some examples.

3% + productivity increases (A321neos, extra stbys etc) for increased base pay and/or reduction in overtime threshold.

if were as as simple as arguing ‘but Tiger get this, we should too’ why didn’t we do it years ago with QF mainline terms and conditions?

Because its not that simple

but add in the entire non management check and training department. The 3 percent figure will just mean silver jets resting against the fence until the company realise that they need to pay a lot more.

Genuine question, how do we know the Tiger EBA is now low cost market rate, what if they go bust in 6 months, or if Virgin only gave in to this as they know they are going to wind it up?

This is what Management at Jetstar will say ‘that’s not market rate, Virgin and Tiger are being reckless and will not survive with those costs, we can’t match that as we are heading into tough times’. Not being pessimistic, after being on the pilot side of the equation for 3 different airlines and 6 contract negotiations (never again) I have always found the pilot group can be divided 3 ways.

1 - get scared at any bluster from the company and just want to settle at the first offer, will not participate in PIA.
2 - the group who is willing to negotiate hard for modest and realistic gains, even if it takes 12 months, and are willing to admit it is a two way street, would take PIA if every other option is exhausted.
3 - The ‘Lets take PIA’ now as we have told them we want a 20% pay rise and they haven’t immediately agreed, ‘just tell them that’ (after 3 meetings), itching for a fight.

I have seen all three displayed above :-) The trick is finding the middle ground before everyone goes in in their own directions and leaves the pilot group in a fractured position. Judging by the relative length of each parties log of claims we can already see a massive gulf in negotiating position which just makes it harder to progress in any meaningful way.

Good summary Ollie!

The crux of what I was saying is the more pilots in group 2 the better.

The most likely scenario is Tiger being strengthened and growing.

Certainly with happy drivers comes more efficient operations..... The opposite to PIA! Hang on there’s an idea.

Them versus us mentality? As part of the QF group are you not (JQ) fighting for closer to QF terms?

Yes it appears Tiger have set a standard, well done.

Lets not forget the drivers are NOT the biggest cost factor and the odd % or ten doesn’t really make that much difference... or does it?

We all know how easy it is to save a few hundred kg’s of gas here and there, be more efficient, push that OTP. Look at it over fleet size.

Anyways we all know I’m now ranting, it all means nothing without unity.

Again Tiger well done!

Assuming 6 weeks AL per year 10.5 months x 60 hours is 630 per annum /$215,000 =$341.00 approx per hour. That’s more than year 3 787 captain in QF . Or am I missing something? Obviously there are some contractural differences ,but based purely hourly rate which the 787 flying will eventually become in all bases ,sounds like a great result. Well done Tiger pilots .

Yep, you’re missing most of the EBA.

The overtime rate is $170ph after 60 hours.

84% higher overtime rate working in easier conditions; makes sense, especially when comparing to JQ carrying their 230 pax vs 170 odd on a 73.

Doubt you’d be able to sell a pay rise based on increase in seats.

I think your best bet is salary comparison and the profitability of your group (massive). More than likely you’ll have to go down the PIA path in the end.

Best if luck.

What would all this extra money be worth without better conditions! Our conditions need a massive over haul as much as we need a pay rise.

Ancdu don’t quote me but one reason might be because there has been talk of merging all the flying. A while ago I heard the company wanted the ability for all pilots to fly together and that separate groups was inflexible. So I think vaa might have a different idea of how they want to run it to qf. Joined seniority list is the first example of this. Also the tiger list is pretty small so the payrise isn’t as “painful” on the balance sheet as it would be for jq.

It certainly presents an interesting scenario when it comes to your negotiations. The timing couldn’t be better for you.

They want Jetstar pilots to work harder?

Yes, we are about to turn into an airline of ‘trips’. Every time you go to work it will be for a tour of duty of between 2 and 5 days. Sad really as one of the only Jetstar advantages over other airline was being a home most of the time.

I hope you’re wrong with that Ollie. I like being home every night!

I hope that I am wrong as well, but the initial documents floating around don’t look positive. Couple that with the fact that Jetstar NZ gained a load of pilots from Air Nelson when they introduced the ‘optimiser’ leading to multiple day trips and I would say the writing is on the wall.

Oh ok basically they’ll own you for 5 days expect an early start day 1 and late finish last day. Suggest you look at recent Virgin eba as this was a massive issue.

You’ll also see multiple roster changes within the trip while they time balance you out of overtime (this will be vehemently denied but again check amendment to virgin eba).

Your last day won’t go anywhere near your home base to prevent you from hopping off due sick or fatigue.

These are some of the tasty gems coming your way.

Why would they go down the trip route. LCC = Point to Point to keep costs down. That just balloons costs. AirAsia/Scoot/Tiger they barely touch that sort of practice otherwise fares need to go up. They have twice the amount of bases than Virgin and half the fleet which is why it’s not needed.

Unless they are thinking of closing bases again?

sounds lovely :rolleyes:

That’s what I thought wheels down.

In an ideal world a rostering system would allow those that want trips to get them vs day trips vice versa. Same for early vs lates. Any promise of this should be ignored.

Tigers main issue is they have always had no long term direction. Successive useless CEO's and useless Chief Pilots as well as multiple other higher useless ego tripping management changes they will always be a rudderless ship, why VA bought them is beyond belief!

Maybe the new guy will sort things out. You never know!

Useless Chief Pilots after Ken left you mean..