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-   -   Alliance Airlines (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/616805-alliance-airlines.html)

B772 1st Jan 2019 06:42

Alliance Airlines
 
Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.

PoppaJo 1st Jan 2019 07:00


Originally Posted by B772 (Post 10348564)
Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.

They have most certainly benefited from poor decision making at fellow carriers resulting in work being thrown at them here there and everywhere. Cough....Virgin.....Cough....

Incompetence at certain carriers shows no signs of slowing down so things no doubt things will continue booming...

Rated De 1st Jan 2019 07:09

Sir Dennis Buchanan had a keen eye for the market and opportunity. An all Fokker fleet in Queensland prospering today is in part due his understanding of the region and the market.
Although Flight West ceased operations the company exists under another tail and appears capably led and serves well its intended market.

Berealgetreal 2nd Jan 2019 22:02

A mate of mine works at Alliance. He describes Virgin as the equivalent of winning lotto for Alliance. Nobody could have imagined it in their wildest dreams.

krismiler 2nd Jan 2019 23:27

They were advertising for Pilots recently, might be attractive for a cashed up late 50s expat who’s sick of the ME/Asia and wants to come home.

geeup 3rd Jan 2019 01:46

What happens if Virgin sorts their shit out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

NWS Inop 3rd Jan 2019 01:55

From what mates in the operation are saying, they also have their own FIFO and tourist charter work and are looking to expand their market reach in the coming year, so not totally dependent on Virgin et al...

Once my exisiting bond is up, I'll be applying...

Berealgetreal 3rd Jan 2019 02:56

If you want progression you won't beat Alliance or VARA F100.

LostProperty 3rd Jan 2019 22:27


Originally Posted by B772 (Post 10348564)
It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.

I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

Tommy Bahama 4th Jan 2019 00:48


Originally Posted by geeup (Post 10350153)
What happens if Virgin sorts their shit out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

The funniest thing I've read on PPRune in long long time.......

Going Nowhere 4th Jan 2019 01:16


Originally Posted by LostProperty (Post 10351131)
I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

Correct,

There's also a F100 in VIP config but I think it's stored at YMEN.

VH DSJ 4th Jan 2019 09:22


Alliance
F100 Captain - $122,675
F100 F/O - $82,819
Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

lucille 4th Jan 2019 09:58


Originally Posted by VH DSJ (Post 10351473)
Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

Maybe rostering is good, quality of life good, a happy crew to work with, no back of the clock flights, good management team.... money isn’t everything. Self worth, self fulfilment and sleeping in your own bed count for a lot. Ask any CX, EK pilot.

industry insider 4th Jan 2019 10:02

The Fokkers are getting old though and more expensive to maintain. Luckily Alliance did buy some to part out but that can't last forever. Some of the Alliance market, apart from their own FIFO, is flying for VARA when the VARA F100s are tech which seems to be quite often. At some stage Alliance will have to start replacing aircraft as the miners want newer types, replacing a whole fleet of Fokkers is going to be expensive.

galdian 4th Jan 2019 19:29

Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

exfocx 4th Jan 2019 22:29

I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

patty50 4th Jan 2019 23:35


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10352132)
I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

What are you on about? The big 3 have some ancient planes.

Allegiant is apparently the most consistently profitable airline in the US, nearly all of their planes second hand and only got rid of the last of their 30+ year old MD-80s late last year.

exfocx 5th Jan 2019 06:37

patty50, I was talking the 2nd tier, like Skywest etc. Have a relative now with Delta who was SWA 'til 18 mths ago. They're not flying 30 yrs old F100s, neither is United Express and same with American, all ERJs or CRJs with the possibility of C220s coming, I think.

machtuk 5th Jan 2019 07:00


Originally Posted by VH DSJ (Post 10351473)
Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

Arthur D 5th Jan 2019 07:51


Originally Posted by machtuk (Post 10352320)
I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

Get your hand off it Darrel.

Poor choice of words perhaps.....

Hopefully killing people is not on any pilots mind.

onehitwonder 5th Jan 2019 09:05

Can certainly say that every Alliance driver i know, loves the company and the lifestyle.
Good management, work, aircraft and crew

Kulwin Park 5th Jan 2019 10:55


Originally Posted by galdian (Post 10351993)
Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.

airdualbleedfault 5th Jan 2019 11:44

One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}

stormfury 5th Jan 2019 16:39


Originally Posted by Kulwin Park (Post 10352500)
Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.

I also initially thought the A220 would fit the bill but the cost is probably prohibitive. If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ. Given all the delays and obstacles Alliance might be able to get a good deal taking on some of the cancelled orders.


Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault (Post 10352545)
One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}

Either way it will be costly, and the longer they delay even making a decision the more it will cost them in the long run - IMHO.

Icarus2001 6th Jan 2019 00:52


If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ
I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

Alliance have done well as a niche carrier and they seem to be able to capitalise on opportunities very well. They are, however, like a trucking company with a fleet of very old trucks that will be off the road shortly. The lease costs of new generation jets will be a shock.

ghyde 6th Jan 2019 05:11

Alliance bought the entire Austrian F70/100 fleet some years ago.

They still have around 7 aircraft stored in Europe waiting to head south.

They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade

Berealgetreal 6th Jan 2019 05:36

Google says a220 90 mil per unit. Alliance bought 22 F100s a few years back for 18 mil from memory.
Rumour has it VARA paid 16 for one.

I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.

I think they’ll have the capital by then to handle the lease costs.

4EvahLearning 6th Jan 2019 07:31


Originally Posted by ghyde (Post 10353116)

They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade

Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 6th Jan 2019 07:43


spare parts company closing down.
I believe Alliance already own most of the spare parts. I've heard other operators come to them if they need something.

VH DSJ 6th Jan 2019 07:59


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 10353040)
I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

I agree with you there. Furthermore, there should be more Ejets on the second hand market now as companies replace their Ejets with the new generation E2. They should be much cheaper to either buy or lease now than ever before.

wheels_down 6th Jan 2019 08:28

In 10-20 years there is going to be an oversupply of 319/320s on the market from those carriers that rode the 2000-2010 expansion wave.

319s will be going for peanuts. Some are already being scrapped.

Chocks Away 6th Jan 2019 09:08

I'm with you Wheels Down, as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song. The A318 not so much, as not as many were produced while most were scrapped for parts as they got more worth than an operating unit... but it would be ideal IF sourced. Same PCNs as the already approved A320 airstrips.
Other options are interesting too - the MRJ; SSJ and of course the EMB series but I'm abit suss' about those as an operator tried with those and is no more (Maybe it was the management of said Company :} )
What does concern me though, is the sad fact that Australian Aviation has come to this disgraceful point mentioned above, stymying any progress or efficiencies :

I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause.

stormfury 6th Jan 2019 15:00


Originally Posted by Icarus2001 (Post 10353040)
I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

For sure, it would not be as smooth a process as if they were to purchase types already in use but I would think the Mitsubishi conglomerate would go above and beyond to assist in the certification process. Add to this increasing Australia-Japan good-will and cooperation at the higher echelons of government could very well see some ‘persuasion’ to ensure a smooth certification. That said, this is all speculation on a rumour forum.

I would still guess that the A220 would be a little above their budget (IIRC you could nearly get two 73s - some sort of ‘deal’ - for the sticker price of the A220). Although as some have mentioned, the A319 might be a better option that fits with their current business model.

As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.

industry insider 6th Jan 2019 15:10


I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.
i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.

ghyde 6th Jan 2019 22:48


Originally Posted by 4EvahLearning (Post 10353152)
Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

Typo typo typo , Re-phase next 10 years.

Parts are not an issue as they are regularly scrapping aircraft to recover parts.
Also they purchased Austrians spare engines and spare parts supply.

neville_nobody 6th Jan 2019 23:56


Originally Posted by industry insider (Post 10353458)
i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.

Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

krismiler 7th Jan 2019 00:32

Airbus are nice when they are new but are designed with a limited lifespan in mind and being relatively complicated, will get prohibitively expensive to maintain as they get older.

Modern aircraft are like modern cars, disposable. A Toyota from the mid 2000s was well built and relatively simple, it could be easily fixed and kept on the road. A car built today is full of electronics and not designed to last more than about ten years when it is expected to be scrapped.

A DC3 can be kept flying forever, and there are still plenty of 30 year old Boeing aircraft in the air. However these are much simpler designs which could easily be repaired and it was often high fuel prices which led to them being grounded.

The business model of operating older aircraft and accepting higher maintenance and fuel costs but saving on capital costs because the airframe was a fraction of the price of a new one, might not be viable in 20-30 years time.

Few things are built to last last these days, most things are now made to a price with little expectation of repair and once it goes wrong you are meant to buy another.

ebt 7th Jan 2019 00:38


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 10353794)


Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

Spot on - and to their credit Alliance have been able to argue that the F100s are still "modern". Given the competitors are also flying them or BAe 146s, there's no driving push to change the fleet any time soon, the driving issue will be the engine support. So far, Rolls-Royce have said that they will support them for the foreseeable future, but that will change at some point.

People I've spoken to at the airline have said the A318 could be appealing, while E-Jet values are going down as more carriers replace them - albeit not yet to the same value as the Fokkers.

Depending on how long the wet-lease stuff for Virgin and occasionally Qantas lasts for, there would be good reason to take in a second fleet type like the E-Jets, but the miners won't pay a cent more for a new type. A220, MRJ, SSJ will never make it into Alliance's fleet.

pithblot 7th Jan 2019 04:02

Comfortable aeroplane
 

Speaking from a passenger's POV, I recon the Alliance Fokkers are ahead of the competition. They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo.

Icarus2001 7th Jan 2019 05:59


As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.
Can you explain this? As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s. VARA seem to be adding A320s from Tiger as they get replaced by B737 aircraft from VA. Cobham tried the Ejet so will probably replace their BAE146 with those.


They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo.
More and bigger than what? All jets of that size have a stand up loo don't they?


as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song.
Is the A319/320 not too big for some routes for FIFO work? What about GSE? Specifically ULD for hold baggage? Can the bags be manually loaded?

The 100 seat aircraft is what is needed and more importantly, what the clients will pay for. It suits shift change sizes.


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