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-   -   Alliance Airlines (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/616805-alliance-airlines.html)

WannaBeBiggles 21st Jan 2019 20:41


Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was (Post 10355667)
It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.

AN also do a weekly run from Cairns to Groote.

I can't say how an old Fokker is cheaper to run, I could be wrong though (anyone know the block burns?). If the operating economics aren't the same or similar to a more modern jet eventually the margin garnered from acquisition cost savings will erode away and it would become more expensive to operate. This is of course based on pure assumption.

This is by no means a comment on Alliance, more a general comment on operating older jet fleets vs. more modern jets.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was 21st Jan 2019 21:54

I think the AN CNS-GTE is part of their RPT network, not their FIFO stuff. As an aside,back when I was in the Territory, Ansett flew DRW-GTE-CNS and return daily with F28's then BAe146's (2 times a week was GOV I think)
I guess owning upwards of 37 Fokkers, Alliance's advantage is that if there is a job/contract offered tomorrow, they can take it. No startups or ramp ups required.

Stationair8 17th Jul 2019 23:23

ASX are reporting that Alliance have purchased five additional Fokker 100’s, spare engines etc and from Helvetic Airways.


smiling monkey 18th Jul 2019 03:43

Helvetic Airways probably thought Christmas has come early, being able to sell off their dinosaurs. Whilst other airlines around the world are upgrading to the next generation regional airliners, (Ejet -E2 in Helvetic Airway's case), we in Australia continue to buy their scraps.

TBM-Legend 18th Jul 2019 05:19

Here its just a race to the cheapest for most clients. A low costs Fokker with low utilisation vs. high cost Ejet for example with low utilisation. Do the maths!

galdian 18th Jul 2019 10:06

Correct me if wrong but Alliance are turning a profit??
If so no mean feat in aviation at any time.

They are part owned by QF, if as some suggest QF take majority shareholding fair to suspect like others they will become second hand A320 operators in the years to come.

For now they are competing in a price driven market - and succeeding.
Yes at some stage they will have to change equipment - but not for quite a few years to come.
The future's not that important right now, much can happen.

Square Bear 18th Jul 2019 10:49

Probably find that there are Countries that regulate Fleet Age by legislation. Australia not being one to do so.

Nothing wrong with the F70/100 and the B717, simply a nice aircraft to passenger in...prefer it over any 73 or 320.

Bit like wine perhaps..:)

RENURPP 19th Jul 2019 00:12


Originally Posted by Square Bear (Post 10521708)
Probably find that there are Countries that regulate Fleet Age by legislation. Australia not being one to do so.

Nothing wrong with the F70/100 and the B717, simply a nice aircraft to passenger in...prefer it over any 73 or 320.

Bit like wine perhaps..:)


You like your wine "Fresh" do you?

First flights - for the F100/70 (1986). B737NG (1997), B747-400 (1988), B777 (1994), A320/321 (1987/1993), were all in production BEFORE the 717 (1998)???

Duck Pilot 19th Jul 2019 08:01

What’s the availability like for 717s, are they easily obtainable and cost effective?


regional_flyer 19th Jul 2019 16:31


Originally Posted by Duck Pilot (Post 10522488)
What’s the availability like for 717s, are they easily obtainable

They are hugely popular at the airlines that already operate them, as soon as one becomes available they are snapped up almost immediately.

smiling monkey 20th Jul 2019 23:40


Originally Posted by galdian (Post 10521671)

They are part owned by QF, if as some suggest QF take majority shareholding fair to suspect like others they will become second hand A320 operators in the years to come.

If QF does take a majority stake of Alliance, then who will VA turn to for their far north QLD operations?

smiling monkey 3rd Aug 2019 08:29

"Qantas stake in Alliance Airlines raises concerns" says the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...aises-concerns

Does this mean the ACCC won't approve the sale of Alliance to Qantas?

Will Qantas now look for another FIFO charter operator to acquire? I heard Cobham is up for sale.
https://www.afr.com/street-talk/cobh...WJscoVbaXK3B9k

PoppaJo 3rd Aug 2019 09:04

Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition

Rated De 4th Aug 2019 02:31


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 10535579)
Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition

Ask the late Mr Bryan Gray how much help the incumbents offered Compass Airlines.
As Compass looked for 767 aircraft, they hoped an existing operator could maintain them.

Despite deregulation, and increased competition being the economic narrative of the day, the "owner" forbid external maintenance being provided to Compass Airlines operating the 767.
The owner was the same government that de-regulated the industry and stood straight faced on camera, welcoming competition.

exfocx 4th Aug 2019 07:11

I think some don't quite understand what "welcoming competition" doesn't mean; it doesn't mean helping out someone who is gunna try to cut your lunch for you! The big 2 are likely to help each other because they are likely to both gain from it. What was Tiger able to do for QF?

Rated De 4th Aug 2019 07:21


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10536174)
I think some don't quite understand what "welcoming competition" doesn't mean; it doesn't mean helping out someone who is gunna try to cut your lunch for you! The big 2 are likely to help each other because they are likely to both gain from it. What was Tiger able to do for QF?

Behaving like an oligopoly was not the intent of deregulation.
In fact, the revocation of the two airline policy was expressly designed to stop the incumbents "helping each other out"
Other than colluding on pricing and giving lifts to the opposition, the industry decades after deregulation is precisely the same as before; Two airlines

Rated De 4th Aug 2019 07:37


Originally Posted by smiling monkey (Post 10535554)
"Qantas stake in Alliance Airlines raises concerns" says the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-releas...aises-concerns

Does this mean the ACCC won't approve the sale of Alliance to Qantas?

Will Qantas now look for another FIFO charter operator to acquire? I heard Cobham is up for sale.
https://www.afr.com/street-talk/cobh...WJscoVbaXK3B9k

Has Rod Sims been kicked out of the Chairman's lounge?


It didn't seem to concern the ever dull ACCC that the proposed conduct Qantas wanted in the tie up with Emirates, required an exemption to the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.
To gain this exemption, Qantas claimed to be in "terminal decline" something the ACCC dismissed, yet ironically gave them and then extended their "alliance".

Soft corruption is much cheaper than buying companies the old fashioned way.

Beer Baron 4th Aug 2019 12:30


Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.
That should be of no surprise should it? Qantas is not owned by the government and is not there to spur on competition. (I know this was not your claim PoppaJo).

When a new airline starts up trying to pinch your customers with rock bottom prices because they don’t employ airport staff, or buy hi-lifts or keep wheelchairs, then you would be mad to support that effort by providing those services for them. You’d simply be ensuring their business model was a success. The money you’d get from renting a wheelchair would never cover the revenue lost from the customers who jump ship.

ebt 6th Aug 2019 02:38


Originally Posted by PoppaJo (Post 10535579)
Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition

Just to be clear, it wasn't AJ who said that, it was JB when he was Qantas Group Exec. AJ was still running a little carrier in Melbourne with an orange star on the tail at that stage.

Icarus2001 6th Aug 2019 03:28


The money you’d get from renting a wheelchair would never cover the revenue lost from the customers who jump ship.
That would depend upon how much one charged for the hire. :E

Wait until Australia catches up with EU rules around air transport (which the airlines will fight) for such things a provision of DPL and compensation for DELAYED flights let alone cancelled flights.


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