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Network A320
What is the latest info on the Network A320 operation in Perth? Is it operational?, Successful? Can anybody shed some light on what is going on there?
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Wait for it.... ;)
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Sits on the overnight ramp a lot......still only 2.....bit of a seagull |
Originally Posted by RU/16
(Post 10338180)
Sits on the overnight ramp a lot......still only 2.....bit of a seagull After all when Little Napoleon and Bruce Buchanan wandered around Asia, ordering 110 Aircraft for an amazing business they had to find a home for all those older aircraft Qantas own. Sitting on static display will hopefully convince the pilots in QF that supply is indeed evaporating at the prices Qantas IR want to pay. |
So how low is the salary for an A320 Captain?
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Originally Posted by C152R
(Post 10338905)
So how low is the salary for an A320 Captain?
Get ready to break out the spreadsheet...the key assumption is based on the "Standard Rate" Single engine UTBNI 1360 kg of $22.05 per hour and the various multiples that apply for ATPL / Turbojet etc. Suffice to say, the LHS would be circa 173K. Casual rates would be 1/800 of that figure per hour. |
There is very little effective difference between AP2010 award and Jetstar / Network / Cobham / QF Domestic conditions. I believe Network A320 is around $185K. Cobham regional just finalised their EBA and are around $175K increasing to $185 by 2020. |
Are these aircraft not a case of build it and they will come? A320s are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice for big miners in the West, particularly following narrow runway provision. Most (not all) Pilbara runways are 30m wide and +1500ft elevation, and the A320 on a closed charter basis makes much commercial sense for miners, over the B737. Network clearly want in and will make good ROI on these machines if they're successful in tapping into to this market. (IMO)
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It’s more the fact a 320 can do a flap 3 takeoff and haul a reasonable load out of a short hot, high, field. In fact you’ll probably find a 320s main limitation out of the Pilbara will be the landing weight in Perth. |
Originally Posted by dreamer84
(Post 10338973)
Are these aircraft not a case of build it and they will come? A320s are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice for big miners in the West, particularly following narrow runway provision. Most (not all) Pilbara runways are 30m wide and +1500ft elevation, and the A320 on a closed charter basis makes much commercial sense for miners, over the B737. Network clearly want in and will make good ROI on these machines if they're successful in tapping into to this market. (IMO)
Network are given the aircraft owned by Qantas cycled out of Jetstar while Jetstar take even more aircraft ordered by Little Napoleon with much fanfare in 2011. It is more a case of hoping that a subsidiary could be found to dump the air frames. A little payload differential never worried QF management, what drives this is IR. The mining wind off is an interesting study. Analysts will tell you that the big uplift occurs in the construction phase. Charter companies grow rapidly supporting the build up. State governments jump in with all sorts of inducements only to find that 'mature mines' are somewhat more automated than they assumed. With QF having split the fleet, with crew bases in WA (rather like the RAN) and pilots in negotiations the more obvious 'return' on Network is scaring the herd in contract season, hoping that pilots don't notice the growing shortage. |
Originally Posted by dreamer84
(Post 10338973)
Are these aircraft not a case of build it and they will come? A320s are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice for big miners in the West, particularly following narrow runway provision. Most (not all) Pilbara runways are 30m wide and +1500ft elevation, and the A320 on a closed charter basis makes much commercial sense for miners, over the B737. Network clearly want in and will make good ROI on these machines if they're successful in tapping into to this market. (IMO)
When the 320s turned up in the West, it was all about “our customers are demanding it”. Well I’m yet to see a single 320 in Ginbata/Roy Hill - Gina apparently said “thanks, but no thanks...I’ll take the reliability of the 737 instead”. Twiggy seems to only want the 320 to Solomon for the reasons you outlined above. Fair enough, but the new FMG airstrip down the road will be 2500m so makes the 320 hot/short argument redundant. The fact they’ve shoved the 320 onto Newman, Karratha and Broome RPT instead of contract work tends to suggest the customers weren’t demanding it all. More lies from QF Group management |
In beards we trust
Goblin a quick run of the figures
Newman 40C 5 Tail 1013 RWY 05 A320 69 300kg B737 66357kg RWY 23 A320 68 200kg B737 65 991kg Given the landing weights of both A320 66 000kg and B737 66 360kg the additional thrust of the V2500 engine (27000lbs) vs CFM56 (26000lbs) compared to the actual baggage carried , is the airbus actually needed?. What happened to the double daily Singapore to offset these A320s?. |
Didn’t QF acquire network to keep the other jet mob on their best behaviour? |
Network is the thirdMajor Airline in Australia, if youre looking. at coming home from OS do it now and beat the rush , with the forecast growth in population of Australia it will be huge, and the only way to sort qf mainline training woes |
Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin
(Post 10339825)
Network is the thirdMajor Airline in Australia, if youre looking. at coming home from OS do it now and beat the rush , with the forecast growth in population of Australia it will be huge, and the only way to sort qf mainline training woes |
Originally Posted by Transition Layer
(Post 10339309)
Hey Dreamer (quite apt)... When the 320s turned up in the West, it was all about “our customers are demanding it”. Well I’m yet to see a single 320 in Ginbata/Roy Hill - Gina apparently said “thanks, but no thanks...I’ll take the reliability of the 737 instead”. Twiggy seems to only want the 320 to Solomon for the reasons you outlined above. Fair enough, but the new FMG airstrip down the road will be 2500m so makes the 320 hot/short argument redundant. The fact they’ve shoved the 320 onto Newman, Karratha and Broome RPT instead of contract work tends to suggest the customers weren’t demanding it all. More lies from QF Group management Not too many aerodrome operators (mining companies) are going to invest in an additional 500m of pavement and related infrastructure beyond their existing 2000m or so when they don't have to. Almost all recent aerodrome upgrades in the vicinity involve nil extra length with some additional PCN. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. But maybe I'm only dreaming ;) |
Shouldn't this thread be moved to the GA & Questions forum :)
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Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10339839)
Qantas IR with their fingers crossed wholly endorse this message.
Don't be naive, the only training woes at mainline was due to a delayed start-up. We can pontificate why somewhere else. |
Network is the third Major Airline in Australia,] Surely they are a contract charter company? They don't sell tickets to the public do they? So where do you see their size compared to Alliance or Cobham? Have you heard of these guys...? http://www.rex.com.au/ |
Originally Posted by Gold Coast Tobacco
Newman 40C 5 Tail 1013
RWY 05 A320 69 300kg B737 66357kg RWY 23 A320 68 200kg B737 65 991kg |
Icarus2001 - No they are not and yes they do.
Network have been a QF salaried & owned subsidiary since 2011. All tickets except closed mining charters are sold on the QF website and link into the greater QF domestic & International flight schedules. Only a small portion of their flights now depart out of the Network Terminal. Alliance & Cobham? Both privately owned separate entities that are subcontracted to the "brand" and doing very well at it still, I guess you'd say. Cobham's B717's though are QF property. |
Bloggs, A320 43900 give or take
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Icarus2001 - No they are not and yes they do. Network have been a QF salaried & owned subsidiary since 2011. https://www.networkaviation.com.au/ Guess what it says on their website?: we are Western Australia’s premier Aircraft Charter Company for FIFO Air Charters and Private Air Charters. |
Icarus, by your logic eastern and sunstate are contract charter too then right? When i I fly a charter I tick the non scheduled box during flight planning... a very rare thing now a days. When I fly RPT I tick the scheduled box, which is most flights these days. The only people going to networks website are clients interested in chartering an aircraft, and probably pilots looking for work but the site hasn’t changed in years! Didn’t you know we’re in austerity! |
Originally Posted by dreamer84
(Post 10339846)
What would your proposition be? Bid for work prior to implementing the type, or maybe build the capability pre tender? From where I sit it would make good sense to integrate a new type well before new opportunities become available? And what new FMG airport are you referring to out of interest - additional to the existing other 2 down the road? And I assume you're aware of a few other miners in the region other than Roy Hill and FMG?
Not too many aerodrome operators (mining companies) are going to invest in an additional 500m of pavement and related infrastructure beyond their existing 2000m or so when they don't have to. Almost all recent aerodrome upgrades in the vicinity involve nil extra length with some additional PCN. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. But maybe I'm only dreaming ;) The new FMG strip is not common knowledge yet but will service the Eliwana operation and will be 2500m according to the guys at Solomon. Here’s some reading for you - https://thewest.com.au/business/mini...-ng-b88848638z Keep dreaming but be careful it’s not a wet one. Shiny jet syndrome will wear off soon and you’ll wake up with sticky sheets and realise you’re the lowest paid 320 pilots getting around during the time of a shortage :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Scooter Rassmussin
(Post 10339825)
Network is the thirdMajor Airline in Australia, if youre looking. at coming home from OS do it now and beat the rush , with the forecast growth in population of Australia it will be huge, and the only way to sort qf mainline training woes Third major airline? Who would have thought QF, VOZ and Jstar wouldn't have made the podium. Population Growth..with both parties advocating major changes to immigration, wrong on that one too.. Mainline training-with another 5000hrs of flying on the 737 planned from February onwards, they have stabilised too.. As for beating the rush to join Network...the very fact you have to post such dribble on here says it all. Another HR/IR troll. |
So which routes are the 320s currently flying?
Excuse my ignorance, not fishing for anything here, just generally interested. |
Broome, Newman, Solomon, Port Hedland, Karratha and Broome. Broome is mostly on the weekends, where they are using it in place of a 717 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday services to appease the state government's desire for cheaper fares.
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Transition Layer, there’s no dreams at all and certainly no shiny jet syndrome! Network has been around longer than Jetstar and has gone through multiple new types in that time, it’s not a new company! To be clear we didn’t accept anything! We had it jammed down our throats from a higher power, those that are on it made a choice, which avoided the company going down the DEC path again. And make no mistake they would have if the need arose. We already know the 320 drivers are probably the worse paid in the land, those that are on it spent time at jq training and have a pretty good understanding of differences. The next EBA will hopefully sort this out but who knows? |
Originally Posted by kimbobimbo
(Post 10341128)
Transition Layer, there’s no dreams at all and certainly no shiny jet syndrome! Network has been around longer than Jetstar and has gone through multiple new types in that time, it’s not a new company! To be clear we didn’t accept anything! We had it jammed down our throats from a higher power, those that are on it made a choice, which avoided the company going down the DEC path again. And make no mistake they would have if the need arose. We already know the 320 drivers are probably the worse paid in the land, those that are on it spent time at jq training and have a pretty good understanding of differences. The next EBA will hopefully sort this out but who knows? My shiny jet comments were directed at dreamer, who seems very excited by the whole 320 operation and somewhat oblivious to the bigger forces at play (IR tactics etc). I’ve always found your comments in the past regarding Network to be very level headed and quite rational, the comment about JQ notwithstanding. Network was just a turboprop and charter operation until jets arrived in 2008 and only really grew when QF took over in 2011. JQ started in 2004, having been formed from the ashes of Impulse which was around many years earlier. As for the next EBA, there’s no doubt JQ pay should be the starting point for Network. But we know that won’t happen without a fight! |
My comments are usually level headed... except when they move the thread! Then I loose it haha! |
Network was not an economic acquisition, it was industrial.
A charter operator sitting in the right place when the mining build out accelerated. As previously stated it is the build up phase where the big movements of people occur, sourcing bigger equipment the order of the day. That Qantas purchased it as the build up wound off is indicative of their intent: Another 'rainy day purchase' That Qantas have pilots based in WA with open contracts is no secret, that Network cannot source sufficient crew IR hope remains secret, The only leverage they have is this perennial threat of a subsidiary replacing QF tail services. That strategy relied upon unlimited supply of pilots. Presently, the team including the 'Stream Lead' (ex AIPA President) is tasked with building narrative to broaden the recruitment of foreign pilots. |
Bloggs,
B737 is thereabouts - 42900kg |
Network Aviation A320's are an experiement, to condition the travelling public to seeing an A320 with a red tail. Many 737 routes have already been replaced with 717's (eg BNE-ADL is 3x717 1x737 now), and chances are one day they will be replaced with 320's, and slowly the whole domestic fleet will be 320s operated and maintained by contract companies, contract pilots and contract hosties wearing the QF uniform. High 5s and bonuses all round at HQ.
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Originally Posted by unobtanium
(Post 10342512)
Network Aviation A320's are an experiement, to condition the travelling public to seeing an A320 with a red tail. Many 737 routes have already been replaced with 717's (eg BNE-ADL is 3x717 1x737 now), and chances are one day they will be replaced with 320's, and slowly the whole domestic fleet will be 320s operated and maintained by contract companies, contract pilots and contract hosties wearing the QF uniform. High 5s and bonuses all round at HQ.
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40 birds were slated for Hong Kong and some ‘Premium Airline’. Vietnam and Singapore don’t want them, in fact Vietnam has been sourcing their own new aircraft. Only half of JQs current fleet needs to be replaced by mid 2020s. A QF 737 to 320 Fleet conversion sounds logical. There is no other place for all these excess Airbus aircraft. |
And no sign whatsoever of a 737 replacement order. |
So why can't the respective pilot groups there in Oz get together, help raise all Terms & C's in the current shortage of pilots, to ensure another Nepolion white-anting plan does wreak havoc?
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Originally Posted by Transition Layer
(Post 10342587)
And no sign whatsoever of a 737 replacement order. Virgin started negotiating 737 Max orders back in 2011 and finalised orders the following year. The first one hits the production line in the next half. Its now at the point where Virgin will have its full 40 fleet of MAXs delivered before QF even gets a single one. |
Rated De, I agree with the thrust of your posts, however...
That Qantas purchased it as the build up wound off is indicative of their intent: Another 'rainy day purchase' |
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