Southbound is the short one

Just looked at today's plan for MEL-PER. 8T is 120 minutes. Thought it may have been more but there you go.

When I looked at the LHR- PER sector a few days back they were carrying a full load of 230+ pax and arriving in PER with about 5.5T. They still had a few ton below MTOW so could probably have put a bit more gas in it. Still, 8T over the top of PER doesn't give you too many funk holes if there are TS around. At least there's normally not much chance of FG in PER in the middle of the arvo!

Or he could look at how they’re crewed and recruit-train-retain the right mix of multiple crews within the current duty limits. Oh hang on, that would cost more and would probably eat into his bonus.

Thanks Maggot,

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

Folks,
Re. fuel remaining overhead EGLL of 8+, what's the problem, that would probably get you to EGKK or EGSS as a full alternate with the B787, based on my B767 time.
Arriving over EGLL with less than 10 in a B747-400 is not unknown, and with an alternate criteria of around 400/1600 (for many airlines even less) it can be quite inclement weather before an alternate in required, but that all depends on your UK CAA Ops. Spec. for your operation.
Contrary to "popular belief" not all airlines carry alternates for all flights, even in Europe.
Tootle pip!!

Is Cocos Island a plannable/useable enroute diversion?

I appreciate you wouldn't want to go there, but are you QF guys/gals able to plan Learmonth if Perth needs an alternate at the planning stage? We're not allowed to plan Learmonth, but we can use it if we run out of options after we launch (eg unforecast fog).

Yep, well south
And yep they probably won't be carrying any alternates, just a standard qf DPA.
As keg said, not too much of a fog risk at 2pm, maybe occasionally TS and they can eek out a tempo for that no problem.
How's cundernin looking LOL

Yep. We can plan Learmonth as an alternate and/or use it for ETOPS and all DP points.

Thanks Keg - we can't plan to use it as a destination alternate or ETOPS ERA due to the lack of RFF.

Add in Karratha to that list also...

It’s unlikely hotels would be needed, other than in exceptional circumstances.

Barring other delays out of the departure end, there should be plenty of duty remaining for a gas and go stop if needed, all those ports should be capable of it at that time of day. There should also be standby crew in Perth to pax one of the many qanta... erm network a320 services :E to pick it up should that be needed. Or have one of those idle a320s ;) come and get the passengers. (Not ideal but not a game changer-stopper).

Adelaide fuel is something like 14t overhead Perth, btw.

Really? :rolleyes:

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board [quote] one of those idle a320s

FFS :ugh:

A 9 out of 10 effort for the exploding Havana Cigar award on that one ES. :ok:

[quote=SIUYA;10100612]Really? :rolleyes:

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board So send two... there’s gonna be, what, 12 of them?!

Urgh, what’s the point. It was tongue in cheek mate. Enjoy your exploding cigar smartarse.

Hehe... very good... like the alleged story of the old lady in Melbourne asking a tramways employee "Sonny, how long will the next tram be please???"

"Sixty-three feet madam"

Qantas had a choice for a 2/4/2 configuration but chose 3/3/3. Everybody knows 2/4/2 is better as you are only one seat from a (wider) aisle.

Agreed, not sure why 8T is remarkable. We (local T7 operator) regularly plan on landing at EGLL with under 7 tonnes...that gives the option of EGKK from the go around, getting there with 30 min reserve...8T overhead LAM (the north east LHR hold) would give EGKK and EGSS as options.

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

Champagne taste / Beer budget
 

Of course passengers prefer wider seats. But are they prepared to PAY EXTRA for more space?

In economy, it would probably seem that MOST passengers are not.

PG

Well here is a review:
https://www.australianfrequentflyer....conomy-review/

I reckon I'm about average, and I'm just over 18 inches from outside shoulder to outside shoulder. With nowhere to go side to side, me in a middle seat is going to be force me on either side of me to lean slightly to the window side and aisle side to avoid touching me. Doesn't sound too comfy for 17 hours (except for me in the middle :O). If either of the me's on the outside refuses to budge, then the other me's are going to be really uncomfy.

I'm certainly not big, I would consider myself average or smaller, and I just measured myself arm to arm (which is actually wider than shoulder to shoulder), and I haven't found a way to remove my arms when I try and sit in an aircraft seat just yet.

20" arm to arm.

These economy seats are a major fail, I can see many arguments about armrests coming up!

I’ve got an idea to keep the whiners happy about not enough room in economy class.

Why don’t we just convert the aircraft to business class only? Say 80 seats? Plenty of room for everyone. Even a special nook for storing your best going out thongs. Then charge the standard economy fare for each seat. Every flight would be booked solid. Unfortunately the airline would be broke inside six months but that’s ok. Well just go to the next airline that gives us unsustainable room for our economy ticket.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

The aeroplane is 9 abreast in economy for a reason. BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR!

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.

Like it or not the main driver for economy passengers is price. When Dazza and Shazza book their tickets the first thing they look at is the cost of the ticket. Once they’ve decided on the airline, based purely on cost, they then they whinge that they’re not served caviar and Veuve Clicquot on boarding.

The airline must make a profit. If it doesn’t it won’t be around for long. To make a profit a certain number of bums must be in seats. Charge too much, because you have 8 abreast seating in economy, and that the only way you can make a profit, then Dazza and Shazza will just fly with someone else. That someone else is likely to have 9 abreast seating. Guess what? They’ll still whinge about their seat being to small.

Seriously, some people should just stick to the bus.

Aiming a bit low? That would assume that Shorten is still there. Only way Albo will make a Minister again will be as Leader and then he will be PM.

And that is about as firm as 2/4/2 seating coming to your local QF B787.

With an attitude like that it is little wonder that I have not flown Qantas international since 1980.

There are many options, including SIA or EK with up to 19 inches in economy and WIFI too!

Dazza and Shazza based on your model would pay $1,181 for a flight with Emirates not the flight with Qantas for $1342.


On a 777 (one sector) and A380.

or even less. Given Qantas seem to have taken the Jetstar seating and feature options for their B787's, they might be pushing the proverbial up hill

https://i.imgur.com/O8Q18Cd.jpg

EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width. Except as I recall the pitch is less than that of Qantas to boot. EY is no better.

SQ is obviously the one to beat for economy comfort and it shows, their product is so good they have shot themselves in the foot because half their fleet is specced with a Premium Economy cabin that they struggle to fill, no one is willing to pay the asking price so what do you do? Discount the seats and give your economy pricing the appearance of being overpriced in comparison?

SQs 787 has 9-across in Y as well by the way. And it will be the aircraft flying punters from Perth in competition with QF.

I did read a rumour that AJ contemplated fitting 8-across in Y, but it was shelved because it would have made the 789 uncompetitive on the other routes it will fly.

Never forget the pax with champagne tastes and champagne budgets are drinking said champagne in the pointy end! Look after them first. 95% of the ones in Y will pick another airline next time unless you are the cheapest option again.

Qantas have created a great deal of own brand damage. Studies suggest over $1 billion of lost value when considering the grounding, lockout and trash talking. Combined with the abandonment of European flying, probably a conservative number. . Kind of silly really.

Notwithstanding intentions, the problem for Low Far Airlines is they catch themselves in the 'price paradox': They can stimulate demand with 'market leading prices'. The problem is that all they capture are demand elastic travellers. (travellers who pick the best price of the day, no loyalty other than price) In fact their whole model weakness is demand elasticity. They struggle to build a value premium, which in turn builds yield. It is brand value that ensures sales can capture this price premium.

Having lost nearly 400,000 passengers from their own aircraft in the First year of the EK alliance and gutting their International netowrk (as well as the damage to brand), outside the home market Qantas finds it difficult to build that yield premium: There are simply too many other brands with value, with fuel efficient fleets that Qantas clearly lacks, their CASK is much lower across a stage length. This gives them a significant advantage diluting quickly any yield premium Qantas once commanded. Fuel costs are a big part of the problem. Lacking the fleet the prime problem.

Qantas has effectively stifled itself in poor strategic modelling, woeful execution and an internal obsession with fulfilling the CEO and Chairman's goals. Dominating unions, suppressing market forces with respect to labour unit cost has the focus internal. There is little outward looking strategy and when they have, they are confronted with competitors that moved on a long time ago.

Many people would choose an EK A380 flight and get the 19" seat width (and WIFI), e.g. EK421/EK29/EK1 etc.

Thank you everyone for proving my point so convincingly. Price, and only price, is the driver for economy class.

Why not all roll the dice and fly Garuda, or Korean, may not make it, but at least it was cheap.

Garuda, or Korean? You may be shocked how really good they are in 2018.

Don, do agree with your point, but you may be surpised how much the industry moved on whilst Qantas went to war with itself (staff)

The problem with Qantas is very much self induced.
The modern airline 'manager' comes from a very broad discipline of 'management'. To make these MBA style course widely accepted, the underlying tone, driven to a degree by the prevalence of accounting subjects is that COST is the one thing that management can easily focus on. So in they come, with the MBA and drive cost down, it is easily identifiable, oftentimes is human (labour) and for managers without real industry insight it becomes a norm; find a cost, reduce it. For what it is worth, we suspect that Qantas is readying itself for the next proxy war with staff; pilots.

The Low Fare Airline really was the accountant driven business. Forgive me if I am wrong but haven't all JQ CEO's been accountants?

The consumer bombarded with the same messages on price, expects (from a consumer point of view) the same 'value' at lesser price. We all demand cheap Chinese goods then complain when there are no real jobs left! ( I digress)

The problem with this is logically it cannot proceed below a given level (fixed cost) so by the time the 'management' re-orientate to growing revenue again (value) it is often too late.

This is the modern corporate cycle. Airlines with their high fixed cost are not necessarily well suited to this approach. Sadly though the 'management' class all read the same textbook.

Real good airline management keeps control of unit costs but equally focuses on driving revenue growth and building a brand value.

If you look at those prices posted I would probably take the second one.


The first was a glance at the prices down to about 8th.
Then was a look at airlines - that scrubbed a few.
Then it was flight duration.


I would then look into probably next aircraft type - A380 wins every time, then I rather a Boeing 747 followed by a 777.


Flight arrival and departure times do have an influence.


Any required stopover in Singapore would be a plus.

I just did a check for my next block of days off Perth to London 20-30 April (was and are flexible).


Singapore Airlines won.


Depart 22 April [Sun] at 14:05 on a B777 (nice time) arrive SIN 19:35 with about a 4 hour break. A bit of a stretch see what's on show in the terminals and beer in the Cactus Bar maybe a snack.


Board the A380 for London at 23.30 after a round of snacks and a beer or two, there is a chance of some sleep on this craft and the airline economy standard. Arrive London at a reasonable 6:00 in the morning [Mon].


Now for the return - Depart 22:05 on the 30th [Mon] on the A380 again after a snack and a couple of drinks there is a chance of some sleep early on when it is dark. You will arrive at SIN at 16:10 on the 1st of May [Tue], I chose the longest layover that was actually the cheapest (free) but would have anyway. This is a 13 and a half hour layover in Singapore.


I booked a $139 room at the Transit Hotel in T2 for 12 hrs inc breakfast.


So on arrival at Singapore it will be to check-in and grab a shower and change of clothes. Then a beer around the pool and go get a meal at one of the many outlets. Depending on how the previous flight went I can decide on getting 6 to a good 10 hors of sleep in the room.


Get up have breakfast (included) and head off for boarding the 777 for a 7:40 departure 2nd May [Wed] arriving about lunch time the same day in Perth.


Cost $1,163.73 + $139 room


Pretty sure I could pay for the beers in Singapore with the savings from the direct flight cost & turn up for work on Thursday.

Of course PER LHR isn’t for everyone and of course there are plenty of options. Qantas only needs a few hundred per day, not the whole Australia Europe market.

Have a great trip :ok:

Most comfortable economy class to London would be SIA A380 upper deck. There is a small economy cabin located at the rear of the business cabin which is very quiet.

Not much further behind would be the Qatar or Etihad A380s all the way through. Product is brilliant and service mostly top notch.

I have not flown Qantas internationally in 30 years and have no intention of doing so. If they bring their A380s up to QR/EY standard then I’ll give them a run.

I see IsDon has displayed his compassionate and considerate concern for his customers again. I bet I know which seats the crew rest won't be.
From the Qantas web site:
My bolding.
Actually, apart from a slightly longer pitch, they've done SFA about and just jammed the standard 9 abreast in. However, they've marketed that they've revolutionized LH travel with the "game-changer". You may as well fly Jetstar, but you are paying more for the QF experience. Even Vietnam Airlines Y seats are 18" wide in their 789's.

There are very few carriers left offering acceptable economy standards on the 777 and 787. In this part of the world, Virgin/Singapore/Cathay has 3-3-3 in its 777, and Japan Airlines are 2-4-2 in their 787.

The upcoming 777x is wider than the current model which will probably mean a 11 across configuration.

No it's Not.

Unless you're talking about its wingspan.

We believe it is, and although the fuselage diameter stays the same, the internal dimension is being increased by about 8" by the use of thinner insulation material for cabin walls.

Given the regular statements that airlines have no concern for any feature that increases passenger seat comfort, the only reason for this can be to insert another seat. The 787 was not announced as changing from 8 across to 9 across until the point it entered service.

The 777 is already one of the noisiest aircraft around inside the cabin, and the thinner insulation can do nothing to improve that - in fact presumably the converse.