Zilcho, I suggest you either re-read your accusatory post, or Google straw man yourself, because you're obviously having a few problems there...

The Gympie Ultralight Club has no association with Qantas. Yet. But I hear that AJ is eyeing them closely. He believes they would be good candidates to undercut those pesky JC guys that are asking too much. You get my point now, or are you just gonna keep playing dumb?

You mention a mate that was on hold with Air NZ for 7 years? Tell me, was he kept there because others undercut him? So I ask you, so what about your mate?

They may get a start at QF, but it will 50 - 60 numbers lower, and the consequences to that are obvious.

You say I have angst towards JC pilots? How do you figure that? I have no angst towards them? THAT my friend, is a straw man argument. You throw out something that I didn't say, and expect me to argue it? Seriously? Good grief. I'm not short sighted, nor am I focused on mates with a Yes letter. Sorry fella, that little gem doesn't work at all. By saying something ridiculous like that, you make it clear you have no concept of what I am saying. Which doesn't phase me at all by the way...

Stop being a smart ar$e and start listening to some who have been around for a while. You mention that you are sitting in an A320, but I note you didn't say LHS, which you would be quick to point out if you were.

Anyhoo, I have no interest in continuing this. It really doesn't mean that much to me. Enjoy your A320, dude. Airbus make a beautiful aeroplane... :-)

Ok.

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

Sounds like a Straw Man argument to me.


Like I said, short sighted. You're worried about your mates number (and yes, I know it's important), but how many "slots" would your mates lose if QF management decided to grow JC with the VH tails? As someone else has already pointed out, JC might not be able to do Domestic, but a VH tail gives them access to more than just the Tasman.

As for "undercutting" (again, focused on the short term), whose to say AIPA don't negotiate for JC to get placed on bottom of the list below those on the active hold file? How do you know your mates wont get a start before any of this even happens?!

Undercutting their Grandmothers? Doesn't sound like you hold them in very high regard now does it?

Every response you've made has focused on mates seniority. You've failed to address how JC going onto the VH register could be managed while protecting the entire QF Pilot group.

No, I am not in the LHS (I didn't realize we were measuring). I'm at a Legacy Carrier and it's not my first rodeo. Hopefully not long to go now, although the RHS of a 787 is looking rather appealing.

I guess you missed my subtle hints that Air NZ Pilots went through a similar situation with Freedom Air. The end result was integration rather than segregation.

Jeez, man find a life. You might want to re-think that 787. Sitting with you in an aluminum tube for 15 hours would be an absolute riot.

As someone who actually is in QF and on the 737, id like nothing more than to see the JC pilots on the mainline list on mainline Ts & Cs. However, as I have no plans to leave the 737, sorry, you can’t be staying in those seats on a permanent basis. Give it 2-3 years, then as a mainline crew member is trained, you go where your seniority allows.

That's probably a reasonably fair outcome sir (although I still don't see the joined lists coming together personally).
It also wouldn't result in a considerable amount of movement as I can't imagine too many people wanting to uproot families to move to NZ for a command. And even less for FO spots since no more than a couple of mainline SO's took up leave without pay to go to JC (though I do acknowledge that increased T's and C's would alter that slightly).

That's the best all-round solution yes.

It brings the jobs back under the mainline umbrella while solving the crewing implications of absorbing the Tasman flying overnight.

Eventually the deck chairs get shuffled and everyone's where they should be.

Can only hope that's achievable.

Perfect solution. It’s not the first time that it would have been done. Now, try to get executive management onboard........

Jetconnect pilots would love the t&cs of the mainline agreement but would generally not be willing to uproot their lifestyle and be based in Australia to achieve it which is the only way it would go down, no one on mainline gets to choose their basing from day 1.

The group are generally happy with NZ terms (days off aside) with a NZ basing (especially WLG).

I feel the captains are going to votes yes and the FO's with ambition to eventually work in Mainline will vote no naievely hoping the company will give them a QF seniority #. If ALPA AIPA QF and JC don't want it how can it happen?

Actually I had the same thoughts about you. From what I've read of El Zilchos posts I think he has a rounded view on things and I could easily spend 15 hours in his company, not so sure I'd say the same about you though, happily there's very little chance of that.

By the way it's aluminium tube and the 787 is carbon fibre. :ok:

The problem with that is most of the guys and gals at Jet Connect are there because they want to live in New Zealand. So unless Qantas opens New Zealand bases for other fleets going anywhere your seniority allows doesn't really come to anything.

I don't think you understand. These gals and gals are being paid similar money plus or minus, (sometimes they have been ahead and sometimes behind) to other flight crew employed/based in New Zealand flying similar equipment. They are under cutting nobody so don't go around slamming them.

Some of them started off when Qantas NZ picked up where Ansett left off in New Zealand. Originally they were only operating within New Zealand. If you want to blame anyone direct your venom at Qantas management, as it was they who decided to replace the Qantas brand in New Zealand with Jetstar and redirect the Qantas NZ operation to Trans Tasman operations.

By the way in case you're wondering I don't work at Jet Connect and I have never worked there but I do know some who have or still do.

[QUOTE=Hawkeye787;10010889]Jetconnect pilots would love the t&cs of the mainline agreement but would generally not be willing to uproot their lifestyle and be based in Australia to achieve it which is the only way it would go down, no one on mainline gets to choose their basing from day 1.

The group are generally happy with NZ terms (days off aside) with a NZ basing (especially WLG).

I feel the captains are going to votes yes and the FO's with ambition to eventually work in Mainline will vote no naievely hoping the company will give them a QF seniority #. If ALPA AIPA QF and JC don't want it how can it happen?[/QUOTE



Hawkeye, you seem to be confusing the issue of the CEA vote and the proposed move to be under the QF AOC.

No one is saying vote NO to the CEA because you should hold out for QF mainline conditions.... you should vote NO because the JC pilots are the lowest paid jet pilots flying across the Tasman. You have no bidding rights, you don’t get a meal or even provided with water when you duty pax on Jetstar, you don’t get credits for paxing or ground duties including sims, you haven’t had a pay rise in years etc etc etc! Also, this CEA introduces a B scale for new F/Os which is pretty low in my opinion.
I don’t get why anyone would vote yes, it’s a crap CEA, and there’s NO down side to a NO vote. Send it back to be reworked and improved. And you have to ask yourself what’s the rush all of a sudden after 2 years of stalling.

As far as getting mainline seniority numbers and mainline terms and conditions, AIPA have stated that that is one of their prefered options to deal with the issue of JC pilots flying VH mainline aircraft. And you’ve stated yourself that the JC pilots would love the mainline T &Cs. It’s only the company that want you on “local” conditions. If you do end up in mainline, I doubt if QF would close the NZ bases, so no one will be forced to move.

I wouldn't put too much weight on JC Pilots being unwilling to move over the ditch. Demographics have changed over the years.

Plenty of Captains are either leaving, left or weighing up their options. China might pay more than a QF S/O, but there's more to consider than money when you're mid 40's with a young family. As for the FO's, well there's plenty of Aussies at JC these days...

I’m sorry... say WHAT?! You do work, and yes it is work, for NO PAY?

Virgin Au had a similar fear about putting vanz on seniority list. FYI no pilots went across the Tasman. Now we have a few but they are pilots that are from Au and took a NZ base to get the 738. No New Zealander has moved in 5 years to the best of my knowledge, just as very few Au pilots would make a long term move to nz. NZ Pilots seniority would shortly award 738 commands in Au and still I know of no one.

All this heated debate of where JC pilots should fit in to a combined entity is largely irrelevant at the moment. Qantas are not asking the opinion of their pilots or the unions, they have no interest in combining the groups so there is little point in getting angry with each other about it.

What us pilots do get a say in are the terms and conditions that we work under, our EBA (or the NZ equivalent). The original post was about using the unique position JC pilots find themselves in presently to get the best possible outcome.

You can effect your teams and conditions by voting accordingly. Remember a few key points;
- Qantas are making a bucket loads of money at the moment. If you can’t improve things now then you never will. The next EBA vote may coincide with a downturn.
- There is a local (QF group) and global pilot shortage. You are not easily replaceable and they need to stem the rate of attrition of JC pilots.
- Network changes brought about by EK (mostly) exiting the Tasman in March are driving this new integration. There is a firm deadline and Qantas will want your EBA locked away by the time this starts in March. This time pressure improves your bargaining position. Don’t get rushed into a deal that you think could be improved. I would expect a NO vote would very quickly be met with an improved counter offer.

I do not pretend to know your EBA conditions but even from across the ditch I can see that as pilots flying for the legacy airline side of the QF group you should not be on sub-standard conditions. You have the best possible combination of circumstances working in your favour right now as you try and improve your situation. Don’t let the opportunity pass you by.

I don't know that I would write it off that quickly. Qantas haven't ruled anything out publicly about it. All they have done is present their "preferred option" (their words). This implies that they are aware that there are other options, and that their "preferred option" may not be accepted by all parties.

It has been said by both Qantas and AIPA that they are in talks about the subject. Qantas wouldn't been talking if they didn't have to (unless they've had an attitude change recently).

There is also a rumour that CASA isn't too impressed by the proposal either.

Let's see what happens, and if the JC guys pick up the phone to AIPA, maybe the pilots can work together on what their preferred option would be, and go from there.

In the meantime, voting down the proposed CEA might put more pressure on Qantas. Just my thoughts.

I Listened to a meeting once between AIPA and ALPA discussing a group strategy with regard to negotiating CEA's (EBA's) for Jetconnect and Jetstar and if there was any possibility of helping each other out to move towards a group seniority list. Barry Jackson was there and I was in on it as a conference call. It broke down very quickly when AIPA stated that they would only negotiate in Qantas pilots interest even if that meant the end of Jetconnect and Jetstar with the loss of those jobs, that was the end of the meeting. I can't see AIPA spending ANY time on trying to accomodate the Jetconnect guys onto the seniority list, I get the feeling they would rather just see Jetconnect wound up with Jetconnect pilots offered interviews just like any other applicant. Hopefully I am totally wrong.

How can a president of a union negotiate to destroy his members careers?

Welcoming in is a different story

Happy to say Ollie that you are wrong.