Was just about to ask the same question as normanton.

Please justify why on earth you think you should have a mainline seniority number? I'm really interested. And somewhat annoyed by such an entitled attitude. But please, go ahead?

I’m by no means advocating that Jetconnect pilots must be giving a seniority number.... however as you mention Qlink Cobham Jetstar Network which of those will shortly be operating under the QF AOC in an offshore base?

I don’t see a sense of entitlement from the OP; more that he/she can see what QF IR is really up to and uniting a pilot group is one of the steps into giving them the middle finger.

One of the other steps is voting no to this sub standard contract.

Minor points summed up are not minor at all. Have you ever heard of death by a thousand cuts?

I haven’t met anyone at Jetconnect fearing for their job unless they’re one the few worried about not passing a CASA medical or a QFA line check.

This kind of attitude is why pilots continue to be out-manoeuvred.

"I didn't get one so why should you?"

It's been done before, and it can be done again, with the agreement of the various parties. To shoot for it in an EBA would be very wise, especially with current pilot shortage in the group, and the bleed of JC pilots to other airlines.

In fact, if I were a JC pilot, I'd be pushing my reps to contact AIPA to organise a coordinated campaign to make that happen. I'm sure AIPA would prefer them to be flying VH jets under the QF AOC under mainline T&C's with a mainline seniority number. I'm sure those guys would too. Delaying the CEA won't affect their job security one iota.

I hear the base meetings for JC were today and yesterday. Does anyone who was there care to share how it went? What was the mood like amongst the group?

Whipsaw and Leverage.

Respectfully - Perhaps you should be asking yourselves (as a group) what you would lose if they were stapled to the bottom of your seniority list ? Then ask yourself why the Qantas group enjoys outsourcing its flying to separate seniority lists on significantly lower terms. Qantas IR have a hundred reasons to like it. Ninety nine percent of those reasons should make you not like it. The remaining one percent is the sting of pride. It absolutely sucks to have anyone given something that you worked very hard for. But in the cold hard light of day, pride is not a good reason to give up that kind of IR leverage.

My humble opinion, having seen both sides of that coin.

The best outcome is for JC pilots and QF mainline pilots is for them to go on the mainline seniority list and be on QF shorthaul terms and conditions. OK I’m hearing you regarding they haven’t gone through the HR shambles to be accepted by Qantas, but hey at the end of the day they are flying passengers who booked Qantas between Australia and New Zealand. Yes I know Cobham and Network do as well, but we have to make a start with the JC pilots. Because the opportunity is there. And if I was in JC right now there would be no way I would vote up any agreement that doesn’t give at least 5% plus per year pay rise. QF are desperately short of crew and they need you! Good luck to all you JC crew regardless of the outcome.

My understanding is that the bargaining team gave secured more then 5% year on year when time is factored in the 'value'. Atleast that's how it was sold at base meetings.

Ohh the Qantas sense of entitlement is coming out again. For gods sake fellas, you’ll lose nothing.

And respectfully right back again - Question asked "what do we have to lose?" The answer is long fought for pay and conditions of employment. If we continue down this track of continual compromise, then as a pilot group we are continuing the race to the bottom. We continue to dilute our worth as an industry.

If you can't see this, then woe betide our industry. Don't mistake my opinion for "pride", I don't work for the red rat anymore. This allows me to view the situation that has been developing for the past 20 years pretty objectively.

Yep, pretty sure that GD said that when he and AJ introduced Jetstar. And it has been a race downhill since then. On that basis I'm sure you will forgive my cynicism.

The race to the bottom requires a segmented and fractured pilot body.
Every step that supports this state continues the race to the bottom.
Every step that creates a bigger, stronger, less fragmented pilot body is a blow to the race to the bottom.
I don’t care if they go on the list or not but if I was a QF pilot I sure would be pushing for it.
balance, I think you have it backwards.
Well, there are a fair few smart guys and girls that think putting them on the bottom of the list is beneficial for QF pilots long term. Woe is me.

Well, a couple things, framer. One - it makes a big fat zero difference to me these days. I'm just an observer now, and a fairly appalled one at that. So, no "woe is me".

The bigger, stronger, less fragmented body you speak of? Yeah, sure. Lets give the Gympie North Ultralight Club QF seniority numbers, shall we?

Your concept of 'bigger, stronger, less fragmented" is an unachievable Nirvana. And THAT is exactly why AJ and Oldmeadow are winning this war, and exactly why the pilot game is in a spiral to the bottom.

You might think I have it backwards, frankly I couldn't care less what you think. I've watched things spiral for the past 20 years, and I can't see things changing anytime soon. Especially with that attitude.

I’ve watched things spiral for the last twenty as well, but I can see things changing mainly because I see an opportunity to be slightly more united as a pilot group than we have been for decades. Tsk tsk what a silly attitude.
PS, although your example of the Gympie North Ultralight club was banal it’s worth considering what would happen if a small move in that direction was made. Would T’s and C’s improve if AIPA had more bargaining power or would they get worse?

Banal the example might have been, but T's and C's cannot improve whilst this happens. It is dilution of the product, pure and simple. Pilots in Australia WILL NEVER form a common entity, it's just not in their nature. Therefore they will be easy prey for the predator.

At least whilst the QF guys were at the "top of the food chain" as it were, there was a standard set, a measuring stick. Now that measuring stick is being filed away, and it is getting smaller by the day. Each time a new company with lesser T's and C's is acquired, each time someone else demands to be included on the QF seniority list, each time a fracture appears, the executives giggle with glee, and give themselves a mouth watering bonus.

And I don't think there is a way to stop it. :\

What a load of :mad:. Ever heard of a Straw man? Go on, have a google :ugh:

I don't have a dog in this race either, but some of the rubbish thrown around in this thread begs addressing.

If JC were to remain on their NZ AOC, with ZK Rego'd Aircraft then there is absolutely no valid argument to give them a QF Seniority number. But that's not whats happening, is it? JC are getting VH tails....

So as a Collective Pilot group, what's the best outcome? No doubt, bringing the JC operation back into Mainline... QANTAS Planes, QANTAS Pilots and all that Jazz. :ok: But it's already been pointed out (possibly in another thread) that the QF 737 operation is in dire need of crew, and could not possibly take over the Tasman.... hrmmm, wonder where they could find some 737 qualified Pilots to do the job? :D

What's that? They haven't jumped through the same HR hoops as other QF Pilots? Well then, how many QF Pilots have gone through the Current recruitment process? Should they all be asked to re-interview for their positions after 30+ years in the Airline because HR didn't even exist back in their day? Give me a break. We all despise the modern day HR process... why give it any validation now?

Give the JC Pilots a QF Sim ride along with a Route check (would be a CASA requirement anyway with the change of AOC) and when they're successful, throw them on the bottom of the QF list.

Honestly, from where I'm sitting, this is the only (and best) opportunity to shift the jobs back into Mainline. It's already been established that QF cannot afford to lose the JC Pilots at this time, so any other scenario which sees JC exist as a separate entity sets a precedent for foreign pilots flying VH, QF tails.

-edit-

What's the lesser evil? Absorbing that company into the fold, or allowing it to exist on it's own, to be used as a bargaining threat every CEA? Freedom was incorporated into Air NZ and now it's nothing more than a bad memory. Sure there's a few hurt feelings and the odd stone got thrown, but that's behind us now. Think big picture, rather than focusing (with spite) on a handful of pilots who might happen to be in the right place at the right time and benefit from a merger.

There is 100K AUD difference in pay between a Jetconnect 737 Captain and a Mainline one.

This gives the Jetconnect pilots massive leverage in current CEA negotiations.

The company of course doesn't want JC pilots to realise this, hence the sudden rush to get a deal done

Jetconnect is an even more powerful industrial wedge against mainline now its integrated

The BS assurances from the company that it won't be used to extract future concessions from the mainline 737 group are laughable. Oldmeadow is deeply involved again and given the massive additional bonuses on offer flight ops management and higher simply wont be able to help themselves.

Qantas iis n the global pilot market as we speak looking for Jetconnect FOs and direct entry Captains. There will be massive expansion of the Jetconnect operation in the next few years - keep in mind that whilst Jetconnect cannot operate domestically in Australia, it can do international services. So SYD-DPS, MEL-DPS and BNE-POM-BNE are there for the taking for you.

My message to the JC pilots is simple - no need to rush signing anything.

For the first time in your history you have bargaining power because you are not only the cheapest B737 pilots in the first world, you are also a powerful industrial weapon to be used against other group pilots.

Don't fall for their bluff this time.

Honestly, you gotta laugh sometimes at people on PPrune. The irony of someone arrogantly telling you you're using the straw man argument, then using the straw man argument themselves! Hilarious!

Mate, I know a bunch of really good pilots that are on the QF hold file right now. They've passed the testing, they've earned the right. Yet a bunch of guys who would gladly undercut their grandmother demand that THEY be given that right instead?

Why give the current HR process validation now? Because it is all we've got. Surely you don't expect they will just open the floodgates and let any Joe in?

I've no idea from where you're sitting, but it doesn't sound like you were / are in mainline, nor is it any of my business. I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy, if you were on the QF hold file you'd be a bit p1ssed.

You tell me to think big picture, and not worry about a handful of pilots from JC? Okies, given that you are prone to lecturing me about things, how about you google the word precedent? Because each handful of pilots that get a seniority number = precedent. It's JC today, Gympie Ultralight Club tomorrow? Where does it end? The tolerance of one creates precedent.

The best outcome? Well, there's no good outcome unless you are a CEO or a HR manager, but to my mind giving the JC guys a QF seniority number is the thin end of the wedge and will realize far worse results.

And my friend, if you think what I say is :mad:, well I just don't care. This has been happening for a long time now, it is still happening, and just because you say :mad:, doesn't detract from the fact that it is happening. Maybe you should google the ostrich "head in the sand" concept too...

Have a nice day! :ok:

Post edited

Where'e my Straw man Balance?

You keep mentioning the Gympie Ultralight Club, so tell me, what's their association to QF? Are they wearing QF uniforms, flying QANTAS branded 737's and about to change AOC's onto the VH register? Didn't think so. JC is a unique operation in the QF group.

You've got mates on the hold file? Congratulations. We've all got mates on a hold file somewhere. Mate of mine sat on the hold file at Air NZ for nearly 7 years. Welcome to Aviation.

Perhaps when your mates finally get a start at QF, they would rejoice in the fact that there's another 50-60 737 Command and FO positions available due to the integration of a group Airline. Because they'll get start with QF regardless of what happens with JC.

This is the short-sightedness I'm referring to. You're so focused on your mates with a "Yes" letter and angst towards JC that you've lost all sight of the bigger picture.

If JC remains a separate entity those jobs are forever lost to mainline Pilots. Worse still, the VH rego opens up more routes for them ex Australia, potentially taking MORE positions away from Mainline (which will hurt your mates careers in mainline).

As for what seat I'm sitting in? Well it's a ZK registered A320 and I'm thankful it's not yellow with Freedomair.com plastered on the side.

-Edit-

Actually Balance, I should ask, what's your desired outcome here? You're clearly opposed to JC getting put on the Mainline seniority list so what's your alternative? Keep them separate? Sack them all?