Originally Posted by Transition Layer
(Post 9989851)
Jog on Champ!
If you despise Qantas as much as it seems you do, then this doesn’t concern you! I just don’t get Qantas pilots. Still stuck with your 1960’s seniority system and a lot (I won’t say all, there are some really down to earth guys there) think they are above everyone else in aviation in the country. What would be wrong with promoting based upon merit, rather than purely who’s been there the longest? As for the Jetconnect thing, if you’re apparently that short of pilots, then is the integration of some pilots from NZ in their current positions really going to create that much of a drama? It’s not like those guys went and applied for those jobs thinking “this is all going to fall over in 4 years time and I’m going to find myself in Qantas”. This would just be a bonus for them. With the projected number of retirements coming up in Qantas I’m surprised at the fuss. You’re all going to get your commands, and if you’re smart about it, you’d be welcoming your Jetconnect cousins onboard and saying “here’s your number on the bottom of the pile, but you’re frozen in your current rank and fleet until you’re number is eligible to move”. Then they can keep their FO or Captain positions, and you can all move around them. There, problem solved! Keg, I hope you all do integrate them into Qantas somehow. But I think I could be forgiven for seeing more of a “f*** off this is our airline and you’re in my job” attitude through some of the posts here. |
United we stand, divided we fall. Easier than the 3 times table.
Collectively across Mainline, Jetstar, all the QantasLinks, JC, Network and Qantas Freight. We can win the fight for job security in a profitable company. Mainline guys want their commands after 50 years of service, JC guys want to feed their families, QantasLink guys don’t want to have to go to the desert and pretend it’s okay. If you want to see Europe book a ticket, don’t move the family to Dubai. You will end up going to Africa and India at midnight. Egos aside we all do the same job to a high standard. The greedy criminals fear us being united. We happen to have power at the moment because some greedy people didn’t hire pilots when they should have. We just need a leader. Is Richie McCaw available? He likes flying. United we don’t get screwed any more. |
What would be wrong with promoting based upon merit, rather than purely who’s been there the longest? "Merit" gives the boss almost unlimited power to play Machiavelli. The seniority system is just the least worst system to curb the excesses of the psychopathic employer. Bottom line is people in positions of power, ultimately end up abusing it, often despite their own best intentions & beliefs. There needs to be a system of tension between the employer & employee to curb the worst of either sides nature. There is no perfect system, and the seniority system is just one method of maintaining that tension. The system also benefits the employer as he always has the perpetual "promotion" carrot for those stuck at the bottom as a way to make the employee sticky & SUPPRESS T&C "You give up something NOW to be rewarded LATER". No carrot = less suppression of delayed gratification. If the demographics & airline expansions in Asia Pacific pan out the way it looks, a group seniority system is exactly what a smart long term thinker in an airline would plan. But alas management appears to have a "rip the guts out of it now" mentality. The phenomenal cost of delayed recruitment & training is truely eye-watering by sending people all around the world. The $$ numbers I have heard are enormous. |
How'd this get to seniority for upgrades? Crikey we don't want the boys club lookin after its own - see the Jetstar mates upgrade mess a few years back as a recent example.
Don't be so naive morno |
Originally Posted by maggot
(Post 9990452)
How'd this get to seniority for upgrades?
The subversion of this system is threatening to destroy those not already in the LHS. |
Qantas has never to my knowledge employed direct entry Seniority is not a really good way to select who gets promoted but it sure as hell beats all the other alternatives. |
Originally Posted by Keg
(Post 9989765)
Easy morno. I hope to see Jetconnect crew offered full employment in Qantas. That would likely result in a pay rise and significantly better future options than they have currently. Of course that may not be on their current fleet or base but hey, that applies equally to hundreds of current Qantas pilots too.
I can't see some (probably most) of them wanting to live in Aussie, which it would appear to be the only other option. Pay rises and better future options won't even come into it. Take that from someone who has been there. For Australian based Qantas pilots there is always the possibility to return to a base given time but for the Jetconnect guys and girls if there is no New Zealand basing then there is never going to be that option. |
Originally Posted by bobbelmore
(Post 9990514)
Seniority is not a really good way to select who gets promoted but it sure as hell beats all the other alternatives. |
What’s the difference between Mainline and Jetconnect crew pay?
Surely the savings in reducing overhead costs are more than just paying the guys and girls the money? |
Originally Posted by Aussie Fo
(Post 9990556)
What’s the difference between Mainline and Jetconnect crew pay?
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Originally Posted by Lowly FO
(Post 9990582)
Also, Jetconnect has 120 pilots for 7-8 aircraft... which is around 16 pilots per plane. How many pilots per VH tailed 737 do mainline have?
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$180 NZD = $164 AUD at the moment, so basically $164k AUD + 10k allowance for a Captain....bout the same as a QLink Captain?
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Originally Posted by busdriver007
(Post 9989460)
Rated
The Company could easily integrate these pilots within the Qantas Pilot Group and make them more efficient flying in the Australian Domestic market on Australian Terms and Conditions. Hell they would even save money for the Shareholders. But it is NOT about saving money for the Shareholders, it is holding a hammer over the various pilot groups. They spent $1.6 billion on Jetstar they will waste some more money in a blink of a eye! |
Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher
(Post 9990509)
Because waiting (literally) 20 years for an East Coast command is why there is so much anger. Almost 25 years for a wide body to be AT THE BOTTOM of the command list working every weekend and last of choice of leave. Those that have supported they system feel they are about to be screwed big time. I believe this would be the slowest upgrade path in the world, can anyone can show me an airline with a slower moving promotion system?
The subversion of this system is threatening to destroy those not already in the LHS. |
For those of you waiting for your Mainline command, is this not an opportunity?
JC is taking direct entry commands at the moment, they simply don’t have the requirements amongst their FO ranks. Why not push JC pilots onto the the bottom of the seniority list,no bidding in or out unless.....if the requirements for DEC are met then instead of it going to Jo Public, mainline FO’s apply through seniority. I imagine there would be plenty of FO’s with no kids or pre school aged kids who would pop over the dutch for a couple of years until their number came up for a home town command. That way the problem ( JC slowing progression for mainline pilots) will slowly disappear rather than fester and potentially get worse. In addition, the company can run the JC pilots domestically once they touch down in Sydney and have locked in 50 Captains overnight. Over the next decade crewing the left hand seat of jets is most likely going to be expensive for Airlines worldwide. Holding onto LHS experience at the start of this ‘experience shortage’ would be a wise tactical move. The alternative sees the continuation of high turnover and training costs on the Tasman, or, greater stress on the already stressed resource of Mainline SH crew hours. |
Holding onto LHS experience at the start of this ‘experience shortage’ would be a wise tactical move. It made little operational sense to establish JC in the first place. There were two criteria:
Thus although I agree with you, dilution of pilot opportunities has been a foundation of all 'tactical thinking within the group' Driving down labour unit cost the sole objective. |
Shifting the pilots straight into short haul commands? Ok, let's take it a step further. What if the company thought that the 787's flown by Jetstar would be better utilised in Qantas? Hmmmm, now we have the company expecting it to be ok to shift 8 aircraft worth of Jetstar crews onto the longhaul award bypassing seniority. If JC pilots were incorporated onto the SH award and into the seniority list, they would be both quarantined and at the bottom. Ie the most senior JC Captain would be below the last Second Officer who joined. Let’s say that the most senior JC pilot was a couple of years from retirement and really liked the idea of being an SO for a couple of years and seeing how a LH crew operated. After a year or so ( whatever quarantine was agreed on) he could apply for any NEW SO slots that had been created since the integration. If he tootled off to that new role then a command position would be available, JC is meeting its internal requirements for DE commands at the moment so that command would go to any Mainline FO who wanted to make the move. That is a command that isn’t available at the moment and hasn’t been for years. As time rolls on and the quarantine lifts it will simply be an Auckland or Wellington base available to any Mainline pilot who has the seniority. As for the Jetstar 787 analogy, they too would be on the bottom of the seniority list. Right now those 787 F/O and Capt positions aren’t available to QF crew but down the track they would be. You mention the pilots of the future, to me it seems that a short term messy integration of seniority greatly benefits the ten year old at Mascott dreaming of being a Qantas pilot. Happy to try and see it from a different angle. Cheers |
Framer,
Personally I think it’s a very workable and fair idea. It preserves the status quo, no pilot in either organisation is disadvantaged, and longer term opens up more opportunities for all. The sort of misplaced protectionism some have with regard to Mainline is exactly the circumstance that locked AIPA out when Qantas bought Impulse. Had those pilots been brought into Mainline at the time, flying their 717s at the bottom of the seniority list, well, ... |
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