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QF Captain was feeling low...
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How many of us can honestly say that we haven't flown at some stage in our careers feeling the same way as the captain in the report?
Hope he hasn't been punished for being honest in his report. We are all human. |
QANTAS should be grounded immediately for busting an altitude and not allowed back into the air until proven safe.
Just like Tigerair :E |
NEW LANGUAGE USED IN AUSTRALIA
What on earth do the words INEFFECTIVE TARGET ALTITUDE mean? What a weird way to describe a complete lack of S.A. and poor terrain awareness.If it were Garuda or Thai Air, every man and his dog would be going on about POOR AIRMANSHIP etc etc, but no not QANTAS, ......they never make mistakes apparently.
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Don't agree Metro Man, why should an airline be grounded due to one person's mistake? The key to a positive outcome for all concerned is how did QANTAS address the incident after the report was filed.
We as an industry must get away from the blame and punishment philosophy and utilise the Just Culture process. |
Umm, sure I have been low and messed up profiles from time to time. But only 600 ft above the ground with 9nm to run on a VISUAL approach is pretty extreme.
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Sounds like another QF 1 wake up call for QF management and rostering practices.
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Huh? You think the magic A330 knows it's 600' 9 nm from landing in VMC and will automatically climb back up????
The GPWS did warn them as designed and they reacted. With the Captain obviously operating at lower than desirable levels I'm wondering what took the FO so long to say something..... |
Tigerair was grounded for "systemic failures"
One error like this in VMC is hardly up to the incredibly low standard of Tiger. |
Question? What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far.
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What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far. |
Yes but as I said "what took the FO so long" he should know how high they were supposed to be at that point and when they went say 200' below with no comment or correction from the Captain he should have began to question the Captain......
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Quote: What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far. Lucky it wasn't NZQN. The investigation final report is available here: Investigation: AO-2013-047 - Flight path management and ground proximity warning involving Airbus A330-202, VH-EBV, 15 km NNE of Melbourne Airport, Victoria on 8 March 2013 |
I do not care if the press pick up on this moderators but the fact is that there are too many fatigued pilots out there. I gave up commercial aviation because of it.
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Who cares about all the wotifs, let's move on from the blame game and work together to make aviation a better and more enjoyable environment to work in!
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from the report
Air traffic control procedures Air traffic controllers are able to issue clearances for visual approaches when flight crew have established and can continue flight to the airport with continuous visual reference to the ground or water and with visibility at least 5 km. Once an air traffic controller clears a crew to conduct a visual approach, the crew has responsibility to maintain separation from terrain and, in the case of the occurrence flight, remain at least 500 ft above the lower limit of controlled airspace. After the occurrence, the air traffic service provider (Airservices Australia) advised that the minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) had been inhibited in certain areas to the north-east of Melbourne to reduce the number of false alarms in those areas. In addition, Airservices Australia advised that when a flight is cleared for a visual approach its corresponding cleared flight level is set to 000 (ft) on the controller’s air situation display. As a result, the system automatically inhibits the MSAW aural alarm and display for that flight. Minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) had been inhibited in certain areas to the north-east of Melbourne to reduce the number of false alarms in those areas. Why not fix the software to reduce the number of false alarms? Why not develop SOP to reduce the likelihood of false alarms? Was a safety alert issued by the controller? Swiss cheese anyone? |
From the other side of the radio, all too often you see individual performance diminished due to various human factors, especially fatigue. Lip service on fatiue is paid by management, but it genuinely astounds me how often fatigue is dismissed by individuals who are prepared to plug in on medium to high fatigue. The effects of operating on high fatigue, and the resulting diminished performance and decision making process, cannot be understated.
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After reading the report I would suggest the ATSB has gone easy on the Captain and QF. Even the Safety Message makes no reference to the dangers of flying with the conditions being experienced by the Captain.
Flying with a cold/virus let alone with disrupted and restricted sleep is downright dangerous and irresponsible in my opinion and should have not occurred. There is also the risk of a permanent reduction in hearing ability in some circumstances. |
I can just imagine if this was Jetstar. The Qantas guys would be relentless...
Open decent below 2000 feet with 1000 feet set in the altitude selector? Ouch. We all have a bad day I suppose. Glad it wasn't me. So I suppose they will dicipline the SO, demote the FO and congratulate the captain for outstanding CRM and saving the day? :D |
I have never seen a airport with so many carriers breaking MSA.
In the last three years Tiger a320, Jetstar A320, Thai twice, Malaysian, AirAsia a330 now QF 330. |
We all have a bad day I suppose. Glad it wasn't me. |
TGG,
So I suppose they will dicipline the SO, demote the FO and congratulate the captain for outstanding CRM and saving the day? |
I have never seen a airport with so many carriers breaking MSA. In the last three years Tiger a320, Jetstar A320, Thai twice, Malaysian, AirAsia a330 now QF 330. |
Originally Posted by wheels_down
I have never seen a airport with so many carriers breaking MSA.*
In the last three years Tiger a320, Jetstar A320, Thai twice, Malaysian, AirAsia a330 now QF 330. Manage that blood sugar. |
Trent 972 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Australia, maybe Posts: 535 TGG, Quote: So I suppose they will dicipline the SO, demote the FO and congratulate the captain for outstanding CRM and saving the day? You are so far off the mark with your supposition, you look silly to those who know what the outcome was. You obviously don't know another scenario then where this happened :) |
Sounds like another QF 1 wake up call for QF management and rostering practices. Fitness for duty is up to the individual. |
Sounds like another QF 1 wake up call for QF management and rostering practices. |
Setting 1000 (400 agl) in the fcu and then using open descent? Is this not frowned upon at QF?
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Yes. Yes it is.
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So I suppose they will dicipline the SO, demote the FO and congratulate the captain for outstanding CRM and saving the day? 139 hours in the last 90 days for the PF, 131 hours for the PM. Half the workload or rostering practices of most of the competition. |
Qantas' head of flying operations, Mike Galvin, said the airline had reviewed its training procedures in light of the incident to highlight the importance of high levels of situation awareness during landing. |
"We are no longer a legacy airline, we are a low cost one" Food for thought |
On a related matter - why do guys accept this visual SHEED arrival for 34 late at night after a long 4 sector day, and even more interesting why does CASA allow this.:confused:
An instrument approach might take another minute, but it's a lot safer proposition. Go figure. |
I wasn't in that flt deck and don't really know what transpired, but judging by the report I suspect not many 'Gates' were monitored, and more alarmingly I don't think anybody actually looked out the bloody window!
It's amazing what that picture can tell you should you take the time to look. There is nothing overtly difficult about visual approaches into MEL, track shortening from Horus can get a little busy but if you're expecting it, as this crew appeared to, it ends up being done quite comfortably. I'm staggered they got that out of shape. As far as accepting a visual arrival from SHEED after 4 sectors, please tell me you're joking �� |
34R - Read what I said: "late at night" after perhaps an 11 hour day. If you don't think fatigue might be an issue in this case, then I wouldn't want to be in the back of an aircraft you were in charge of. :ugh:
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let's move on from the blame game and work together to make aviation a better and more enjoyable environment to work in! You can make a good start by getting rid of low cost bogan carriers like, well, I can think of one in Oz.... :rolleyes: |
On a related matter - why do guys accept this visual SHEED arrival for 34 late at night after a long 4 sector day, and even more interesting why does CASA allow this. An instrument approach might take another minute, but it's a lot safer proposition. Go figure. |
You can make a good start by getting rid of low cost bogan carriers like, well, I can think of one in Oz.... Aircraft are the modern day bus service, you're not flying around aristocrats anymore. Just because it's low cost, it doesn't mean it's low safety. morno |
Just because it's low cost, it doesn't mean it's low safety. I think it's called affordable safety now. Or is it "worlds best practice"? Basically whatever we can get away with until there is a death and/or Royal commission... |
Morno,
I think the LCC mindset had been with Qantas since setting up Qantair in 1970, later in the 1970s offing fares from Sydney to London for just 79 pounds. Being a government subsidised airline they did not need to make a profit or pay for their own aircraft. |
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