Sunstate pilot's undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
 

Back in 2005 the Sunstate pilot Committee undercut the Eastern pilots regarding flying the Q400. Eastern wanted 10% more money for flying a 50% bigger aircraft but the Sunstate proposal won the day and they agreed to 7% more.

I’ll admit right here that the initial Q400’s were probably always going to be going to Sunstate due to other reasons, but they didn’t know that at the time and they offered 7% in the belief that that was what was going to get the new equipment to them instead of “The Mexicans”.

Fast forward to now. Over the past few months our management has demonstrated in the most convincing way possible that unity and agreement between the two pilot groups is paramount.

But yesterday the Sunstate pilot EBA team disregarded that and undercut the Eastern pilots AGAIN!

Yes, the VERY SAME PEOPLE who were responsible for the 7% debacle have decided that it was more important for them to get an agreement over the line “before Eastern do” than to try for more.

(It has been a bragging point by some of the Sunstate EBA team that they will get an agreement signed before Eastern).

In a nutshell:

The Eastern team were holding out for:
• 9 days off per roster (instead of 8 ½)
• $10.00 p/h DHA from 1 Jan 15
• FO’s pay at 55/60/65% of a Q400 Captain for years 1/2/3

The Sunstate team settled for:
• 8 ½ days off per roster
• $9.30 DHA from 1 Jan 16
• FO’s being on 55% of "current fleet" Captain wages for the first three years of employment

Last lot of EBA’s the Eastern team worked hard to get some things the Sunnies guys already had, plus the retention package, which put us ahead of the Sunstate EBA. The Sunnies guys said “We’ll have what the Eastern guys got.” And that put both EBA’s pretty much on a par.

This lot of EBA’s, that was obviously too hard for the Sunstate guys. THIS TIME, they looked at what the Eastern team had negotiated, and then decided to undercut what we’re asking for. This has now put the Eastern team into a bind, as we still don’t have our deal yet.

The Eastern negotiators now have to canvass their pilot group in light of these new developments. Their job has been made that much harder because their Queensland colleagues have just agreed to a lesser deal.

The Sunnies agreement shafts any new hires.

A new hire gets 55% of a Captains wage for three years. (Note: that’s 55% of a Q300 Captains wage if they’re on the 300). Also they won’t get the PIP until checked to line as a Captain.

So to any of you people looking at Qlink for a future career: You can pretty much expect to be employed by Sunstate and based in Brisbane (the company is quite adept at moving pilots around: It’s common for Melbourne based crews to fly out of Cairns, Brisbane based crews to fly out of Sydney, etc).

You can expect to be paid a base salary of $55k (ish) for three years while your “Mexican” colleagues (who you’ll see in the southern crew rooms and who will be visiting your crew rooms) will be earning up to 15k more doing the same job and flying the same equipment.

You can expect any new bases opened to be Sunstate bases, such as the recently opened Adelaide base.

Unless the Eastern team is pressured into a similar outcome, which would mean that any new Eastern hires will be subject to the same measures.

Good luck living in Sydney on 55k!

All because certain people thought of themselves first and everybody else can get screwed!

DIVOSH!

Any truth to the rumors that a sweetener in the form a jets was offered?

It's got to get up first and there are A LOT of very unhappy campers at the moment. Well on the 400 anyway. Classic guys couldn't be happier with their limited amount of work.

I personally feel that DHA on it's own is a flawed system and won't increase motivation to work when you're getting flogged like the 400 guys are. A lower DHA combined with overtime pay would be much more appealing.

Take this scenario for example;

A 400 Captain has 120 duty hours rostered and a Classic Captain has 80. The 400 Cptn. is working 33% more than the classic driver. With DHA alone, the 400 Cptn. will earn $372 extra for the month. An FO will make $240 more. Hardly a motivating pay off for the rubbish lifestyle.

To me, an overtime system (like every other airline in the country has) would make more sense. If we took the system VARA use and applied it to the above scenario the Cptn. working more would earn a more reasonable amount.

I think the VARA guys get overtime for anything over 59 hours flying and I believe the FO rate is $60. I'm not 100% sure what the Cptn. rate is (let's assume it's about $100). Applying those figures to the above, our hard working 400 Cptn. (lets say they're flying 80 hours on the roster) will now receive an extra $2100 a month. A much more reasonable return for the extra work.

Overtime would also see a massive decrease in sick days for the guys who are getting flogged. Who wants to call in sick just as the going gets good post 59 hours?

I also notice that the worry about being away from base sitting in hotel rooms all day hasn't been addressed. Didn't the Jetstar guys just get DTA approved for the whole time they're away? As it stands, there is nothing to discourage the company from having us sit in hotels all day twiddling our thumbs.

Lifestyle is the reason a lot of folks stayed at Qlink. If they wanted to get flogged and be away from home all the time they would have gone somewhere that paid you for the luxury. Until the above concerns are addressed a lot will be voting no.

Let's just be clear, nothing has been voted up yet. The Sunnies 'negotiating' team have only agreed in principle with something to table to the troops. The pilots still have the power to knock it back and play for a better deal, but whether the majority choose to value their worth more than their representatives do is the $55,000 question. Enjoy your 4 day trips.

bddbism

Noted - Title changed

DIVOSH

Who would have thought that some senior Sunstate captains (the negotiating team) would agree to a B-scale contract for new hires? I'm surprised & disappointed. Hopefully my colleagues and friends in Sunstate bases vote no to that idea.

Ok.....I will bite!
 

DiVosh,

The original Q400 deal was for flying an aircraft 35% bigger, i.e. the Q300 to Q400. The original deal to encompass the 300 / 100 pay was done in 1999 with the agreement to an extra year increment in the EBA.

I also know that 'NEITHER' pilot group were going to get much more than 7% as an industrial precedent was set by the QF 737 with the NG introduction.

Like you DiVosh I'm sure we are both long term employees of our respective companies, and I'm sure we would have even flown together or shared a simulator along the way.
I would hate for the next few weeks to end up in an episode of airing our dirty laundry from both sides.

The only winner in that situation would be the trolls and the company.

Vote for you and your situation, consider your colleagues- present and future and seek out the wisdom of the people your trust. Put no faith in debates where people will not put their name to the debate.

Peter

Seems like a good deal to me. Will vote yes.

Should not the union be working out how to manage the EAA versus Sunstate tensions? :E

What Jets is Sunstate getting ?

Why are you surprised, most Aussie pilots are just flying hookers who sell them self out anyway. Have headsets, bend me over. :ok:

New Hire FO Pay
 

So for the first three years of employment. you will make less than a Mcdonalds Manager and now just fall within the low income bracket for a Centrelink low income support payment..."Oh Brave New World"

I fear this will set an example for the rest of the Aussie Industry and we as professionals have a responsibility to maintain our conditions and lifestyle, lest we end up like America where you live off food stamps, commute long distances and live in crashpads.

I'm interested to know which unions represent sunnies and eastern

Well done to the EAA pilot(s) airing their gripes about their counterparts north of the border.

With reference to your log of claims for the EAA EBA, how is that going? Has it not been the best part of 2 years since your EBA expired??

Forgive me if I am ill informed with the facts of your EBA campain, the truth is, I just could not give a :mad:

Good luck with the negotiations, hopefully you reach an agreement before SSA are back at the table with the intent to undercut their friends south of the border! :ok:

Gen y sub 500 hr pilots whinging about being in the right seat of a Q400. Shut the **** up and be glad you didn't have to spend 5 years in the bush getting paid 75 percent less than the new EBA is offering. Vote yes.

Anyone voting yes to this clearly does not care for the future F/O's joining the group.

DeafStar. Please remember that not all new F/O's are not sub 500hr pilots and some have done their time out bush.
At 55% of Captains wage, someone flying a King Air, piston twin or caravan etc for a reputable company would be taking a pay cut to join the company.
New hires will not be bonded or required to pay for endorsement cost. Sounds like an invitation to get some multi crew time and bugger off to something better quick smart, although with the rumour that Jetstar have been asked not to take on any Qlink guys could make things more difficult.
With the lifestyle disappearing, crap wage, no progression and pretty much guaranteed to be joining the company on the sunstate eba. Why would you?

Because these days, if you don't have an ATPL, there isn't too many places to go.

The offer looks like it's geared to those who want to stay. If you're just in it until something better comes along then management aren't going to pay you a cent more than they need to, nor will they charge you anything to leave.

Maybe if the EAA council had approached the process differently, it wouldn't be taking so long and they would've been first to put out an in-principle agreement.

If it gets up, there will still be no shortage of applicants. They just won't be around for long!

Sources tell me that the FRMS is also off the table. In the too hard basket as far as management is concerned?

If that's true, then unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat by April 30 next year, it's CAO48.1. In broad terms Both Easterns and Sunnies will have to find 30-40 more pilots just to service the current schedules! As well as greater layovers on Min rest.

Relax boys. The last thing you need to worry about is signing anything at this stage. Wait a little longer and you'll have some real leverage!

Sunstate pilots undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
 

They're already having trouble crewing flights. Why jump at this? It's already been a long time since both EBAs expired. What's a little while longer?

Jump on the PIA Express to Slow Down Town. Yep.

I make no comment on the EBA negotiations of which I know nowt but;
is not too dissimilar to when I became a Nord Effo some 24 years ago.

Sunstate pilots undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
 

ICUS wouldn't have mattered anyway because it's gone now and is irrelevant

Oldmedow wins again "divide and conquer"
You would have thought the two pilot councils would have been sharing information and united for a better outcome for all the pilots employed on the DASH. It's not a competition

Mods why is this thread in the GA section? Maybe we need to mention Alan's not happy or something?

Flame suit on:

Is it really as gloomy as everyone makes out? For established crew there are some healthy gains, albeit at the expense of new hires. Now before everyone loses their cool, yes I was a fresh FO at one point, and without going into the EAA VS SSA debate, there are some pros I can see. As much as these aspiring new hires put their poker face on in the interview and swear 'no Qlink isn't just a stepping stone for me', the reality is the majority of people leave within the first 3 years. Even when they have bonds to pay out. Now there is nothing wrong with this, as it is only natural for a pilot to want to keep on moving up the chain. So now there will be no training wage, just full pay (well 55% of capt) from day one with allowances and duty hour allowance. And NO training bond so no obligation to stay around if something better comes along. At the moment guys are paying upwards of $10k to leave :hmm:

No flame Mav', just a history lesson.

When I started in the regionals 20 years ago pilots were paid full salary from day one. Pilots did not have to pay a bond. Pilots were treated with the respect deserving of their sacrifices and accomplishments thus far.

Don't be too quick to applaud management's minuscule moves back towards what is equitable. After 2 decades of taking their most valuable resource for granted, they are simply re-inventing the wheel and calling it their own!

They still however have a long way to go.

Newsensation,

That can be seen as colluding... Unlawful territory there shaggs

Firstly a correction – I tried to change the title to Pilot REPS but have been unable. Sorry about that. It should be pretty obvious, though, that my gripe is with the pilot reps.

Capt Stoobing

I’ve heard a lot of wild theories to the 7% but I’ve never heard that one before. But there is no way that the 7% was as a result of a 1999 deal between the 100/300. Your assertion that the 7% had anything to do with a Mainline agreement is also false, IMHO.

Mate, it’s not hard to work out who I am, even JennyTal could work it out. Email me on my Qantas email if you want to discuss further.

For those who are wondering, both groups are represented by the same union. And up until very recently there was good communication between the pilot committees and the respective EBA committees.

I think many of you are missing the point.

How many threads on here bemoan the fact that everywhere you look people are actively lowering T’s and C’s for other pilots because of short-term selfish greed? How many threads are there blaming J* pilots for the lowering of conditions because they accept crap pay deals? How many threads are there calling for pilots to act together to stop the rot?

Well, can there be a better situation than this? We have two pilot groups employed by the same entity. They fly the same aircraft out of each other’s bases, fly together, do sims together, etc. (Not uncommon to have a MEL CAPT/BNE FO, SYD/MQL FA’s to fly out of Sydney).

Look at the Flight Attendants: Sunstate FA EBA allows the FA’s to work up to five sectors after a min-rest overnight. The Eastern FA EBA only allows the FA’s to work up until 1300 on day two after a min rest overnight. Due to this reason alone, any new FA bases opened by Qlink are Sunstate FA bases. Perth and Adelaide are examples of this.

Late last year the company closed Perth base (EAA) and opened Adelaide (SSA) as pilot bases. Pilots were given the option: “Change base/Change to lower paid fleet/Change from Captain to FO or lose your job.”

Has there been a better time for the pilots to show unity and common purpose? Is this not the best time to show management that the two pilot groups will not be divided on anything? Is this not the best time to show to management that they can’t pit one pilot group against the other?

Apparently not. “I’m alright Jack” appears to be the name of the game.

Lotsta (aka Ian Oldmeadow, who was in the meeting) would have been laughing to management later. “See, I told you! Keep holding out and one of them will crack. The decision by the Sunstate reps will pay off for us for the next ten years!”

The sad thing is, is that this will probably get up. FO’s are leaving at a massive rate. The last I heard that there were 60+ Qlink pilots (EAA and SSA) either in the interview process or on active hold at Cathay. These guys will likely vote it up to get some back-pay.

(As displayed by some on this thread) some will vote YES for whatever justification that allows them to look themselves in the mirror, and “I’ll do okay out of this. F*ck the rest”.

IF it gets up, I hope that some of you who voted YES remember to look over at the FO you’re flying with and remember that his/her **** pay could have been better if you weren’t so greedy yourself.

DIVOSH!

Whilst I don't disagree with your point about selfish greed, all the chest beating rhetoric in the world about underpaid FOs doesn't escape the fact that the company rejected the EAA proposal as being too costly. It was never going to happen. I can see why the EAA pilot council would want to make this about Sunstate considering they're now almost two years into an EBA negotiation with nothing to show.

The Sunstate proposal gives a baseline of what the company finds acceptable. There's nothing to say the end result won't lie somewhere between the two proposals if this gets voted down. What you can be assured of is you won't get anything the company doesn't agree to, no matter how many times you ask. History has proven that.

Whilst the new FO pay is terrible on both proposals I would suggest the removal of the bond is a fairly significant saving for those who do move on within the 3 years.

I'd be more concerned about the lifestyle aspects of the agreement. I wonder if the company's decision to withdraw their claim about removing work rules from the EBA was a neat strategy to take lifestyle and rostering issues off the table altogether.

"the company rejected the EAA proposal as being too costly. It was never going to happen."

Negative. Try this theory. The company rejected the proposal because Sunstate Pilot reps weighed in at the 11th hour, after all the legwork had been done by the Eastern PC, with their proposal. All indications in the last several weeks were that it was about to be signed off and drafted for a vote. The Eastern PC from all reports were blind-sided last week.

We can argue all we like. Hopefully our colleagues up north will realise the bar needs to be at the very least maintained, preferably raised, but never lowered.

If I have to take a pay cut in order to get an overall-better EBA over the line, so be it.
- But I hope my principles are strong enough never to ask someone else (already much lower paid) to take a pay cut just so I can get a better deal.

If Eastern pilots have to remove PIP from FO's wages to get a better EBA, so be it.
- But in that eventuality, I hope FO's vote away their own PIP, not just the PIP of the lowest-paid FO's who cannot yet vote by virtue of not yet being employees.

Regardless of Eastern/Sunstate dirty laundry, the idea of sacrificing future employees for the sake of current employees is contrary to the philosophy of unionism. If you're going to vote for it, at least understand you're voting against the principles that give you a Pilots' Council.

Isn't it obvious?
 

Isn't it obvious?


You vote the first one down and get a better deal second time round.


Look at the recent negotiations of JQ and QF. Vote it down and more money magically appears overnight.


Nobody takes the first deal - isn't that what negotiation is all about?

Lets consider long term here
 

And what of the day where all these "new hire FO's" outweigh in voting power those who are Qlink lifers.

Don't think they will give a second thought to voting away your privileges as a senior member of the company for a couple of extra bucks. We have seen it happen before.

Consider it an investment to protect your own lifestyle and conditions.

I'm a Sunstate FO and i think the proposed EBA is a disgrace. It is disgraceful to be undercutting Eastern in such a way. Why is it that as a pilot group we can be so stupid. Oldmeadow must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Gissing mentioned once in a group telephone conference that the "honeymoon" period of 2008-2013 was now over. Point taken, mining has declined, but if we were in the "honeymoon" period, aka the best Qlink is ever going to be, then how the hell is it that all we could manage was a 3% pay increase and a ****ty retention bonus that does nothing for our base pay whilst working harder?

Some of you are thinking "yeah but we cant ask for too much there is a balance, we don't want to go too far or we'll be all out work" Good point, but I'll quote Gissing in recent roadshow meeting-

"Although we don't disclose exactly how much Qlink makes, I can say the out of the Qantas Domestic profit of 220M, we don't make up the majority but we do come close to it". So basically he said we are just under 50% of that, say 100M profit. Sounds to me like things aren't as bad as what they will have you all believe.

I've always wondered why we as a pilot group have managed to stuff this up for so long but now i'm starting realise why. I ask many captains on the line what they think of the current EBA, trying to have a basic discussion, and 80% of the time i get a response which is borderline retarded. Mostly i get an answer of-

"I haven't really been following it, not sure".
My reply "Have you been reading the EBA updates, have u been following Eastern's progress, do you know where each negotiation is at"?
Their reply "No i have no idea about where Eastern is at and i dont care".

OR

"I dont like to get involved in EBA stuff, its all too political, i think our current deal is ok"

Yep the current deal is ok if you are a 10 year captain living in sunny cairns, with stuff all living expenses. But we must remember that its alot more difficult living in sydney or melbourne and we must stay strong with out Eastern counterparts. I really feel for Eastern on this, I cannot believe how badly we treat them when it comes to EBA time. We must show the company that we are united and only then will progress be made.

Final point- The sunstate team will try to tell us we are better of under this agreement. Bull****! My calculations have me earning the same as what i would have under the old agreement had there been no pay freeze. On top of this i will be working harder. Also i will be slapped with a command bond of $25,000. So taking into account inflation and the like, i'm actually taking a further pay cut, but that's not what they will have you believe at the upcoming roadshows. I really hope the the pilot group will vote no to this and show some unity with Eastern. In the eyes of the company we all like like a complete bunch of muppets. Rant over.

Sunstate pilot's Reps undercut Eastern pilots AGAIN
 

Why vote to reduce or remove PIP at all?? The Group is apparently "transformed" and will be making massive profits year-on-year for the foreseeable future.

B Scale
 

Voting up a reduced rate for new hires will only keep downward pressure on our T&C's. The company won't care how many FO's leave, they will recover the training cost with the reduced salary, and they will have them lined up at the door wanting in ready to sign on the dotted line.

We can do better than this.

Anyone know what is being traded for this new deal?



With the group forecasting profits, and a mass exodus/recruitment drive looming, I think this agreement is very much in the companies favour.

With profits coming, let's keep 100% PIP (as payment for the wage freeze)
With an exodus looming, offer a decent retention bonus.
65% for an FO should not be dropped


Open until 31st May guys
http://careers.virginaustralia.com/m...icer-australia

noclue - I'm with you.
There is a mass exodus coming and if this EBA gets through then it will be even more so as current FO's will hesitate at the $25k command training bond, and new FO's will not hang around when they're paid 16% less than current FO's.
We should keep the PIP at 100% - it's totally at the company's discretion anyway, they can announce the percentage to get the payment they're happy to give.
FO's should remain at 65%, I fly with many FO's who carry the whole operation and are worth hanging on to. I'm not looking forward to that conversation with a new FO where they say "so how's my $10k looking in your bank account?"
I'd also like 9 days off per month to make amends for working nights and weekends but that may be a pipe dream. And don't start on the 6 weeks leave thing - the extra 2 weeks only make up for the 10 public holidays we lose.:ugh:

The reasons I'll be voting no:

1. No attempt made to retain the lifestyle a lot of us came here for. Management might think we're all here because we have to be but a lot of us have/had other options but turned them down to maintain a decent lifestyle. We chose lower pay in return for not being away on 3 day trips all the time. But now a lot of us have what must be the highest duty hours in Australia with the lowest pay to boot. If lifestyle is gone for good (as I suspect it is) then you'll need to do better with the compensation for being away from home or more time off.

2. $25,000 training bond for new Commands. Really? So just coming off a 3 year FO bond they now want to hold us hostage for another 2 years? That'll be over $50,000 and 5 years in training bonds for the current FO's. If a command bond has to be in the mix it would be a lot fairer to waive it for current FO's. Although I admit this would probably negate the point of it from the companies point of view.

3. New hire FO conditions. This is a pretty abysmal base pay. About $850/week after tax. No need to kick the people who aren't around to defend themselves. If the trade off for lower new FO pay was the removal of the training bond and training wage I say bring them back and keep base pay % as it is. It's not unreasonable to expect a new hire to stick around for three years. If they leave due to a better offer in that time then they will do so knowing they will need to pay their bond out. Leave the new hire bond in place and get rid of the command training bond.


As mentioned above, Qantaslink has more than pulled it's fair share of weight with regards to QF group performance. I suspect we have been the backbone of the group over the last few years while other sectors of the business were struggling. It's time we were rewarded for our efficiency now that the business is supposedly going to make decent profits.

Rumour has it another 20 to be recruited into one of the big 2. They see and appreciate the value of well trained QL pilots.
Hopefully that will be reflected in the next intake ;)

Back to topic. Have none of you heard of the saying 'don't sell your unborn children'.? That's what you'll do if you vote a B scale. As someone wrote one day the unborn kids will be the majority and see what happens to the A scalers then :)

That is all.

There is a spreadsheet floating around that shows that a new FO under the proposed SSA agreement will be $35,000 worse off compared to a current FO over the 3 years of the agreement (and that includes the DHA rubbish!). And where are these new FOs supposed to go with a useless Dash 8 endorsement and a CPL? Removing the training costs/bond is disguising the real issue here.

But, if the EAA proposal was to be implemented, the same new FO is "only" $18,000 worse off, but they start making the ground back 2 years into the agreement and upwards from there. All for a 4% retention payment to existing crew instead of 5%.

1%. That's pretty much what it comes down to.

This proposal is ingeniously aimed directly at the current captains - look at the seniority list, there's 134 captains at the moment on a total list of 243. Thanks Mr Oldmeadow.

Mr negotiator, what would your good friend ...Think of this deal, I fear not much.
(RIP)

There is a lot of reasons listed here to vote Against this Deal, I urge you all to do so.