It’s ghastly but compelling viewing, watching cockpit labour cannibalising itself.

So “professional”. :rolleyes:

You’d all do yourselves a favour if you took this out of the public arena.

Reading this just makes me glad I work for the Government!

Feeling it for you blokes. I hope that QF doesn't keep screwing you.

Alan's not happy
 

Come on guys, there's not enough IMHO's being thrown around here and I can't help but notice the severe lack of these signs :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I'm off to the loo and when I get back there better be some more characteristic PPRUNE talk, IMHO

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

And therein lies the problem Damien. You rightly have a personal preference which fits with your views. But others obviously have different, and equally valid views. Without picking either or any side, every one can't be happy with a decision.

If the EBA was voted up a year 1 Q400 FO as of Jan 1 2016 would be on $61,758.18, then throw in 90 hours duty per month - $6500 per year = $68k

Not a great wage if your a GA driver coming in from a turbine command job ( if its that bad DON'T take the job) , but if your a cadet straight out of Uni its not a bad start in your career.

The Air Pilots award has an FO's wage listed at $54,391. Thats 13% lower (on base wage) than the negotiated position in the SSA EBA.

Arewegettingjets I love how you talk about reducing new hires wages like it's a good thing. Reducing peoples pay will affect us all in the long run. Stop being so short sighted and why should existing FOs get a command bond when they have already endured a 3 year bond. This is a one sided EBA with captains getting big payments with executive car deals and FOs conditions seem to be getting stripped to accommodate it. GOOD STUFF :D

I think you may be a little out of touch Captain. I took a pay cut coming from a flying school, never mind a turbine job! But my eyes were open, so I don't complain.

I am glad though that not many Eastern pilots felt that my wage should be reduced along with ex-cadets' wages. It's hard enough paying a family's bills in Sydney without senior captains suggesting I'm paid enough and don't deserve any more - just because some of my colleagues are straight from flying school.

(Edit: Captain Stoobing, you're making sensible & un-emotional posts, which is commendable. If you could show that no 2016 FO would be worse off in the hip pocket under the new proposal, you would perhaps be closer to achieving the goal of your Pilots' Council.)

Captain Stoobing, Please don't tell me you are negotiating using the Air Pilot Award. Firstly it was done in 2010 and if that is your starting point no wonder we are all going backwards! If that is how you sell EBAs god help us all! If that was the case a narrow body Captain would be on $121,894 and a wide body Captain would single-deck Captain would be on $139,929. You are what you negotiate! A starting point would be working with the Eastern Pilots to improve everyone's conditions in the interest of all professional pilots not just your own self interest!:ugh:

Yep, and you can take that to the bank manager....right(70K)?

And after 3 years there are no jet jobs, you will be totally satisfied with what you signed, right? But wait...... the next EBA will attack the conditions of the guys in the LHS because history demonstrates you guys will sell anything you can. Hey, I can sell you a spot on the QF seniority list if your prepared to take a paycut. There may be one or two caveats, but it will be written in stone!

Has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe this first offer was setup to be voted down?

After all the JQ first offer was voted down by 90+% wasn't it?

As has been said before, wait and read the entire document, if you don't like what you read, then vote no and the pilot council will have to try again.

I can't see why the company would remove all financial penalties for a new FO to leave early. It'll turn Sunstate into a constant training school where FO's will leave within 12-18months and experience has shown that whenever there is a large amount of training, the schedule goes out the window. Just look at what is happening now in CNS and BNE on the Q400.

For those complaining about the pilot council only looking after themselves, how many of you applied the last time they were looking for people? Didn't think so...

Could someone post a copy of the document here or provide a link please?

There has to be a point where we stop undercutting each other not just in QLink but in this industry as a whole. From what I can gauge there's quite a percentage of pilots in Eastern who would be prepared to make a strong stand against the company to show them that this kind of deal is just not on.

In addition, the company are valuing half of what we are offering them at $0, then needing more "efficiencies" to pay for our claims but not giving any indication of what they want or how much (just asking for ideas to be thrown at them and they'll let us know when we're getting warm). That is just a slap in the face for the Pilot Council who are trying to negotiate in good faith.

Both of those factors will make the next couple of weeks quite interesting.

At the risk of repeating myself...

Don't be in too much of a hurry. CAO 48.1 will cost the company far more than any savings/raping of F/O's salaries and conditions.

As April 2016 approaches, watch the collective pennies drop!

So looks like Sunstate is hiring again...

https://qantas.taleo.net/careersecti...7Cl-rQsGA.link

While the description lists all bases, the hiring Group is Sunstate...

KRUSTY,

I hope for the pilot group's sake that I am wrong but historically the company is extremely reluctant to pay more than the usual when it comes to these big ticket demands... And let's face it, the union and the company both know that CAO48 is a big ticket due to the changes brought in by CASA. From what I heard, the company didn't entertain the unions price tag for removing the duty hour limit clause from the EBA.

One exeption to my statement above is the 40k bonus to captains in '08, for obvious reasons at the time. But that's about the only time I recall in my time with the company.

My guess is that the company will simply suck it up and take it for what it is.

I thought we had an excess of pilots? With LWOP being offered etc?...

Yes.......LWOP

And it is being extended for a few over in NZ. I'm happy for those folks over there but it is crazy to extend someone's LWOP to then have to hire someone into the company.

All things EBA aside its a circus.

Thanks Soup'. I actually tend to agree. It is so far outside of the management's mind-set, that to offer anything substantial (even when faced with the bleeding obvious) would simply be unthinkable. It just isn't in their DNA! One thing's for sure though, come April next year, it may become rather entertaining.

Several LWOP requests lately have been denied after having a verbal agreement when the LWOP offer was initially advertised.

Those that have had it denied, have all resigned... :ugh:

The QLink C&T system will be working hard again by the looks of it seeing as quite a few of the new FO's won't be sticking around long...

In the Soup,

The company actually wanted to remove the current CAO rules from the EBA and replace them with a clause that states the company can change the rules however they like, whenever they like. Obviously the council said WTF???!!!

NowThatsFunny

No doubt the Sunstate council will advertise the positive terms of this agreement in principle and somehow forget to include the negative aspects.

Going Nowhere
It appears someone has removed the jobs page you've linked. The website doesn't appear to be accepting any applications either.

SN

SN , they probably received 10,000 applications and decided it was enough.

For a second I thought they had finally realised they have 'not so active' hold file of 20 + applicants from 2012/13. :ugh:
Feel for you lads, take it as an opportunity to seek other gigs. :ok:

I will be voting no.
 

I will be voting no.
I encourage anyone, especially captains, who are not selfish and not willing to lower the bar for the industry to also vote no.
I hope that the captains who think this is a good deal can see past their own greed and realise the FOs are being screwed. But as someone already mentioned, the cpts outnumber the FOs.
We have already given up our lifestyle, and 1.5 years of standard pay increases. Why must we give up anything more?
As an FO I will not be accepting a command if I am to be bonded for another 2 years after I have just been bonded for 3 years.
The new hires can't stand up for themselves.... Let's stand together! There is no reason for this pay cut.
FO dta of around $6 is laughable. Our time away from our families and young children is just as hard. We get just as fatigued. Our lifestyle is just as important. As per the other allowances, it should be the same as the cptn.
I hope we all communicate with each other at work and vote down this **** deal!

Thanks dude, i found it in the end. From base reduction to recruiting in six months flat, how embarrassing for them! Must be a few in AD at least a little cheesed off over this.

SN

dude
As I understand it they will need to issue a vacancy bid so current employees get first shot subject to freezes etc. After that they can place any new recruits into the remaining slots to achieve base establishment numbers.

But then who knows whats next......

SN

Extension allowance?

The only reason I can see for the DHA is to provide a pay rise without the company being seen to provide a pay rise. With that in mind, it makes sense for the Captain DHA rate to be higher than for FOs. Otherwise FOs would be getting a higher percentage pay increase than Captains.

Would you also propose that the flight attendant DTA rate is increased to be the same as Captains then? Their time away from home is just as hard as the Captain's too. Or perhaps everyone takes a cut to be somewhere in the middle? We all know it just doesn't work like that. The other allowances you're talking about are agreed meal rates and have nothing to do with the value of your time.

This must make you happy? What is a Virgin 737 Captain paid again?




SPICEJET GIVES BOMBARDIER Q400 PILOTS A SALARY HIKE TO KEEP POACHERS AT BAY
Budget airline SpiceJet, in the middle of a turnaround, has decided to bring the salaries of its Bombardier Q400 pilots on par with those who fly Boeing 737 planes.
Airline sources said one reason to increase pilot salaries was to counter the increased attempts by Gulf carriers such as Etihad and Qatar Airways to poach highly-skilled commanders.
... The move, which comes on the tenth anniversary of the Ajay Singh-promoted airline, is likely to cost the airline about Rs 50 lakh a month. SpiceJet has about 100 Q400 pilots in a total of 450; the decision to buy Bombardiers was taken when Kalanithi Maran was at the helm of the airline.
The industry’s average monthly salary for senior commanders is Rs 5.5 lakh.
“This was a long standing grievance of our Q400 pilots and the decision to increase their salary was taken by our new promoter Ajay Singh who thought it was a very valid and genuine demand. A pilot is a pilot and it does not matter which aircraft he or she flies. This difference (in salaries) shouldn’t have been there from the very beginning,” one official said.
SpiceJet has also announced the creation of a pilot benevolent fund.








https://www.facebook.com/omniflyers?fref=photo

"A pilot is a pilot and it does not matter which aircraft he or she flies".

Imagine if you could earn 400K a year flying a C152 around a circuit doing ab-initio training, instead of being an A380 Capt. I've probably opened a can of worms here but flying a Q400 and B737 are totally different things.

I'm comparing salaries not who I fly for or what I fly! Clearly you need to do your English assessment again.

Agreed dr_doLiTTle!

Without attempting to minimise my current role as training captain on a jet, my time flying the Dash 8 was without a doubt the most challenging and in many cases most rewarding flying l have ever done!

I'd go so far as to say, the overwhelming majority of ex RPT turboprop crews l have flown with (from Australia, NZ and PNG) are some of the most professional in the business and certainly deserve a fair pay deal.

So after having a lapsed EBA for about a year, you're going to reward the company for that with a longer 3.5 year EBA. We can assume there won't be another "in-principle agreement" until a year after the new one expires end of 2018. So end of 2019. But that's Christmas. So early 2020. And to get one over the line so expeditiously we'll see FOs on 45% of Captan's pay. Meanwhile the peak of any bargaining power will be in around 2 years when mainline is sucking pilots up desperately.

Very amusing part of the Sunstate EBA Campaign update on 27th.

"We are also aware of some misinformation being spread on various on-line forums regarding the proposed agreement. Again, we simply ask that all pilots read the final package once it is released and attend the roadshows before determining their vote"

Somehow I think they're gonna make their proposal look really nice.

Anyway, your Sunstate negotiator (there was only one in the room when the deal was struck), while knowing the details of the Eastern proposal, has given away several things:

a) We're already aware of the 55% for 3 years garbage.

b) The Sunstate DHA starts at $9.30 (Captain) and $6.00 (FO) increasing to $10 & $6.50 at the end of the 3 to 4 year agreement. The company was the one who initially put forward $10.00 and $6.50 from the start of the Eastern agreement.

c) No Productivity Incentive Payment for new FOs until they are a Captain. Awesome for them, considering 5 to 10 years before the upgrade.

d) Forfeited 6 months of backpay. Yep 6 months gone.

Wonder what kind of incentives the company offered Rod.:=

Just a question-Do the Sunstate AFAP reps negotiating this deal have any "favours" bestowed upon them such as EMVS leasing over and above the normal stated provisions of the current EA? Are they anything other than line pilots? e.g. are they Check and Training pilots holding that position at the good will of the management?

NTF, great post.

I also read with amusement:

So what “misinformation” are we talking about?

If we compare what Eastern are still negotiating and what the Sunstate negotiator(s) have agreed to...

EAA are after 9 days off. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 8 1/2

Right now the EAA/SSA guys are the hardest working and lowest paid pilots in the QF group. Not uncommon to see 70plus stick/130 duty in recent rosters. Not uncommon to have pilots regularly flying 18+ days out of a 28 day roster. Reserve days are considered work days (you just don’t know what you’re doing yet). Why would anyone agree to an EA that didn’t have more dedicated time off?

EAA are after $10.00/$6.50 DHA, increasing during the EA. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to $9.30/$6.00 DHA, increasing to $10.00/$6.50 during the EA

Are you Sunstate guys aware that the COMPANY suggested an initial $10.00/$6.50 amounts when they first proposed the DHA? Nice one, let’s let the company know that they’re being too generous.

New hire FO rates: EAA are after year one 55% of a Q400 captain, year two 60% of a Q400 Captain, year three onwards 65% of a Captain of your aircraft type. Sunstate rep(s) have agreed to 55% of your aircraft type Captain for the first three years.

The fact is that new a new hire Sunstate FO will be approximately $15,000.00 worse off over three years than their equivalent Eastern FO.

So where is the misinformation? All the above is from the AFAP website! Or is the AFAP website one of the “online forums” you’re disparaging?


As I’ve stated previously, this is NOT the time for the two pilot groups to be undercutting one another.

Looking at the points (above) re: days off and DHA: IMHO, the DHA is an admission by the company that the days of 6-8 reserve days per roster are gone for good. They’re going to work us much harder and this is their way of compensation. What possible reason is there for either pilot group to “out-do” each other (by agreeing to less) in order to get an agreement over the line?

For as long as I’ve been in the company the two pilot groups have been trying to move closer together and communicate better in order that an event like the Q400 introduction doesn’t happen again. This SEEMED to be happening and I was of the understanding that there was better communication and understanding between the pilot groups. It certainly was the case when I was on the EAA committee.

Which leads me to...

(Disclaimer: Note that the below are questions only and are not intended to spread any "Misinformation")


If I were Sunstate pilot attending a roadshow I’d be asking the following questions to the EBA team:

How many EBA negotiators were in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?

Were any AFAP industrial reps in the room when the “in principal” agreement was struck?

Were any EBA negotiators or AFAP reps present via telephone conference?


If the answer to the first question was less than three, and the answer to the second and third question was “No”, then I’d be asking WTF?

Just saying.


DIVOSH!

75 stick/140 duty is standard now in Brisbane for 400 FOs and has been since the start of the year.

And that's why I'll be voting NO. Trading off whatever lifestyle we have left for $6 per hour... no thanks, AFAP.

You just have to find the right employer. I'm on a package well above what a VA/JQ narrowbody FO would be on to instruct on a SE piston Aeroplane...

They are out there team! :ok::ok:

The individual named in post #90 is not a member of the SSA council nor does he hold other elected positions within AFAP.