Qantas Expands International Routes
 

Just announed by late June Qantas to resume Perth - Singapore route in a Boeing 737-800.

5 times a week…

Singapore has what, 5 times a day..?? Fairly sure its not in a 737 either! :mad:

Just putting it out there.
 

What about if Qantas had services beyond SIN from East Coast Australian cities to say, UK and Europe that Perth flights could complex with ?

This would surely help support a more appropriate aircraft for international Ops than a 737 ex Perth AND create a network Australia wide for those desirous of a Qantas airframe for travel to/from Europe ?

Oh, thats right........

PER-SIN !
 

The have got to be joking!

The cancelled service was an A330 and in my opinion one of the best regional flights they did out of Perth.

I can survive an A320 (Jetstar) and even a 737 (Qantas) for 5 hours but I really don't want to!

They had pretty full loads on the A330 service so why the downgrade?

Need to build the service up after the damage done by withdrawal??

Who are the LCC into PER from Sin.
SQ must be laughing their guts out, 5 flights a week on a 737.
737 domestic J/C seat v SQ lay down beds. What a joke!

The SQ "lay down beds" are not all that flash, having tried to stop myself sliding to the floor for many hours on a sin - BNE flight.

The service is great, the food good, but the Seats are nothing special.

Not sure that a 737 has a lower seat mile cost than a 330 so a full flight on a 330 should generate more profit than a full 737, the clincher is whether they can fill the 330.

If they can't - and they get say 180 on average per flight, then a 737 will be far more profitable, as the sector cost of a 330 will be much greater than the sector cost of a 737.

The other part of the equation is what else they could be doing with the airframes. If the 737 is already in Perth and doing a lot of sitting around because of the schedule, and the 330 isn't, then it is biased towards using the 737.

It also depends on when the flights depart and arrive. Are they scheduled to sync with domestic flights from inter and intra state? Do a bunch of miners on FIFO arrive in time to connect with the flight to Singapore or does the flight from Singapore arrive in time to get someone coming from Asia onto a FIFO flight to a mine site.

You can't look at the individual city pairs in isolation.

SQ have an A330 on the route, Scoot have a B787 and J* an A320 so the high and low ends of the market are well catered to already with direct flights. With a flight time of around five hours it's not really worth the inconvenience of a plane change to save a few dollars.

Perhaps QF are trying to cater for the passengers who still want an Asian stop over on the way as they can connect with EK and other code share partners Singapore.

T-Vasis: What are you smoking? A quick look at our bilaterals allow unlimited 5th Freedom rights out of UAE. Both passengers and freight. The problem is places like France that have put unrealistic barriers(150 seats three times a week). Another problem is Dubai, like London cannot handle anymore traffic. Bypass it all together with the right aircraft. Scoot, Air Asia and Jetstar are all loss making low-cost carriers! Frequent Flyers pay a lot more than holiday makers. An end of the line carrier, eh? Just like Air New Zealand! Qantas did have a Network until Geoff Dixon gutted it. 57% of Qantas Frequent Flyers prefer to go through Asia to Europe and Alan Joyce creates a typical point to point airline type operation, no wonder he can only offer B737s. Bite the bullet and buy 35 B787-9s, even better still paint the Jetstar ones and put in J Class lie down seats and divert the A380 through Singapore from Melbourne and take back what was Qantas traffic that has left. Air New Zealand and Cathay have shown the way, all Qantas needs to do is give up on the Jetstar dream, easier said than done with the current bunch.

It will be nice to see the "national flag carrier"* serving an overseas destination from Perth.

However, SQ offer four flights a day on a B777 or A330. I cannot see people flocking to a B737.

The budget conscious have Tiger, Scoot and Jetstar to choose from.

*meaningless phrase

T-Vasis:
Aircraft-even the B777LR can do Perth-Europe WITHOUT restrictions. It already can do Dallas-Adelaide WITHOUT restrictions and it is an old technology aircraft!
Jetstar would never have survived without the mother ship and the Asian franchises are NOT profitable! Remember Orangestar? The holding company of Jetstar Asia went broke in 2011 because "it could not meet it's obligations"(not my words), in other words Qantas had to buy it out and create Newstar with QF money and write off it's debt. $63 million worth of "goodwill". Air New Zealand is PROFITABLE (sustainably so and not because of write downs). Geoff Dixon and James Strong failed to understand that airlines need a network and he proceeded to shut it down and buy the wrong aircraft. 57% came from Qantas' own research in 2009(i was there) yet they went ahead with shutting down European services through Asia. Air New Zealand and Cathay recognise that in long-haul flying the Front pays for the Back! Look at the most expensive fares across the Tasmen, invariably they are ANZ and guess what they have some of the cheapest, that is why they shut down Freedom. The Australian Government has a lot to answer for, This is something that we can agree on. In the real business world the negotiators responsible for giving away our bilaterals without something in return shows a level of naivety common in Australia. As a US Senator said to me "What is wrong with your Politicians in Australia, Don't any of them have children?"

The Jetstar franchise internationally has been a disaster.
The name should be changed to the 'Money pit'.
T-V, The 'Jetstar dream' has turned into a nightmare.
Massive capital injections in North asia, over 10 years of losses in singapore, only one very small profit in that whole time. And let's not mention the disaster of Vietnam. Ok, I mentioned it.
But wait for the huge bonuses coming up for AJ after the engineered massive losses last year so that we have a big 'turnaround' this year.
Jetscar is not the answer.
We need a 330 to compete with SQ. a 737 will not cut it but at least the Perth FF punters can now accumulate/burn points on this route if they want to. They probably all have FF with SQ anyway.

BINGO. Limited by QF management in recent years.

The gifting of QF pax who wish to travel to Europe to Emirates is madness. They book QF end up on Emirates, they enjoy the experience, which website do you think that they will go to next time?

http://airreview.com/Qantas/QantasMap.jpg

QF cannot do the same because?

This is the current management line and is wrong. Synergies like creating huge write downs for losses.

The bottom line is that QF management have been distracted by Jetstar and taken their collective eyes off the ball. Probably as a result of AJ being the father of Jetstar. Jetstar has COST QF money. There is no accounting standard in the world that would show otherwise.

T Vasis... You fairly represent the attitude of current Qantas management. Allow me to tell you why I, at least, find it annoying.

1. QF red tail fleet decisions have been mismanaged. Wrong choices have been made over the last 15 years. No need to bash the dead horse but it's a massive horse never acknowledged by management. It's one of the biggest factors in QF's recent woes. Cue Air NZ comparisons whilst acknowledging your points.

2. Jetstar, Internationally has underachieved. Yet it has been given capital. Qf was told to get further capital it had to meet its cost of capital. The hypocracy is frustrating. Put simply, the Ivory tower must be disappointed. Unfortunately, thousands of employees have lost their job.

3. The attitude under Joyce has been Jetstar can do, Emirates can do, Air NZ can do...Qantas can't do. Your previous post also suggests this annoying attitude. If management showed the same tenacity advancing the QF business as they did defending the Jetstar money pit, it may be easier to argue that they didn't, in fact, take their eye off the ball in favour of some pipe dream. Unfortunately, thousands of people have lost their job.

4. Joyce grounded Qantas. It is his legacy. I will never forgive him. It was the wrong decision saved by a weak government.

5. The recent management decisions to improve aircraft utilisation and to change the value of the fleet to reduce depreciation expense, is not rocket science. In fact, I see it as another clear example of this management failing their stakeholders. Why wasn't it done years ago?

The prevailing attitude I have is that management gave up on Qantas for the last 5 years. Brushed it under the carpet. It's very sad.

"Early start-up" must be the latest management-speak for "embarrassing debacle". It can't be anything to do with timeframes, since the outfit in question has been known as "Jetstar Pacific" for 7 years now.

You conspicuously failed to mention Jetstar Hong Kong. Presumably it's in "embryonic start-up".

In fairness for this part of the argument, I believe QF subcontract their catering/ground staff etc in Singapore to SATS -- which is owned by Singapore Airlines. There is no such catering truck sitting around SIN all day waiting for QF to arrive. Surely this is indicative of other stations around the world??
On the other hand, QF used to do the lions share of foreign airline ground handling in Australia until the past few years when anecdotally contracts were given away by management jacking up prices by 50+%. :eek:

T-VASIS

As you suggest the B777-200LR can operate LHR-PER with a full pax load and 15 tonnes of cargo. PER-LHR is viable year round provided there is no expectation of cargo being uplifted.

At some stage in the near future QF will have to go back into SIN-LHR by overflying DXB or operate PER-LHR nonstop due to political/religious problems mounting in the Middle East.

There is already evidence of QF losing LHR traffic to other carriers, especially high yielding traffic who do not wish to transit DXB. In an attempt to keep the premium cabins full QF are now contacting J class pax with frequent points available offering a transfer to F class. This is in addition to contacting Y class pax with frequent points available and offering a transfer to J or F.

Compared to what?

Qantas Skybeds? SQ is much more comfortable and doesn't have lumps digging into every part of your body.

Qantas domestic seat? SQ is vastly superior to the sit-up-and-beg QF seat....and lies flat.

Qantas 'new' lie flat seat (as per A380)? Qantas just about wins over SQ but I don't see too many of ANY of those options on a QF 737.

The QF product is an embarrassment, especially when it laughingly suggests a 737 is an appropriate vehicle to compete with the likes of SQ's 777. Why on earth would I buy a QF business class ticket and sit upright in a noisy, single-aisle machine with the lacklustre QF service when I can fly SQ in a proper aircraft for the job, with decent seats and a world-beating cabin service?

I used to use the QF flights all the time when it was a twice-daily A330 with Skybeds. The service linked nicely with the European flights and it was rare to see too many empty seats (though I appreciate this does not imply a good yield). With Qantas shunning WA it was a no-brainer switching to SQ and QF lost another Platinum One passenger. I'm sure Joyce and Co won't be losing any sleep over my departure but on my last SQ flight the bloke sitting next to me was in exactly the same situation........and equally annoyed that he couldn't use his QF miles for anything that he actually wanted (not relevant I know, but with over 1.8 million miles between us and unable to use them for something WE wanted it was another indication of why QF is losing customers).

The 'new' service to SIN will probably work as far as profitability is concerned and that's obviously what's important to QF. As far as encouraging travellers on the route to QF from SQ they don't have a hope in hell.

Pontious, I suspect it depends on what SQ fleet type you are comparing.

I was talking about the 330 which has the same J class seat as virgin have on their 330's, same as Fiji airways on theirs too.

It is an angled lie flat bed, in that it extends flat but at an angle, so you are constantly sliding towards the bottom of the seat.

A proper lie flat bed/seat that is also level is, I reckon, a much more comfortable proposition.

I don't know what QF have in their aeroplanes these days.

There a huge difference for general passengers between 3-3 and 2-4-2. But beyond that, the 738 has less seat room than the 330.

738 Cattle Class Figures: 17.2" width, 30" Pitch, 5" Recline
A330 Cattle Class Figures 17.5" width, 31" Pitch, 6" Recline

Then there is the average time to get served. I recall the A330 was quite a bit quicker due to more cabins and galleys.

Cabin comfort is much better on the A330. It's very quiet in comparison and the ride is smoother.

The only win for the 738 is average egress time is less than the A330.

I just read that Emirates wants another 5 year extension to the QF deal. God help us


"In 2013 Qantas killed the Flying Kangaroo's long-standing joint venture with British Airways in favour of a five-year hook-up with Emirates. This created passengers for Emirates on their routes from Dubai to European airports. It has been very profitable for Emirates but the deal is due to expire in 2018

Now Emirates is keen to extend its alliance with Qantas (no wonder) for another five years and further wants to boost the number of its A380s flying to Australia. Its time Qantas stood on its own two feet and realised that this joint venture is only helping Emirates profits and driving passengers away from Qantas.


Qantas needs to be in joint ventures with a number of airlines and preferably those that are members of One World alliance and not furthering the dangerous world dominance and industry destruction that Emirates is creating


https://www.facebook.com/AirlineSafety

In my earlier post addressed to T-VASIS I should have mentioned the B777X both the 8 and 9 as being a suitable a/c for QF to overfly the Middle East. We do not know the payload/range as yet but I am confident it would meet the QF requirements for the route.

Its rare to see such slippery use of language & selective amnesia to promote a faith, a belief as an "almost certainly truth".

I believe - nuff said. There is no proof, because the accounts that would enable such proof have not been released. Your statement is a one of faith, not fact. Present evidence other than some vague about profitability statement by CEO's.

Once again, a statement of belief, faith, and untestable, except in hindsight - yet crafted to mold perception today.

But yet Qantas appears to have all the liabilities. Qantas always seems to providing the capital injections, yet always seems to have its equity diluted. Singapore, Japan & Hong Kong come to mind.

So what you are implying is leverage. That precious seed capital could have been alternatively used for improvement in the mainline brand using the same concept, ie leverage. But that appears not to suit the agenda to effectively offshore the bussiness.

Once again faith & belief, trust us it will all work out in the end.

More bogus information, Qantas had a whole team of executives in running (including operations) in Vietnam beginning around 2007/2008. Two of them were subsequently arrested and it became a major diplomatic incident Fears for Jetstar execs questioned in Vietnam

Can't blame Qantas? Really? Politics and national interest are always at play. CX were only going to do what Qantas did to SQ about the Pacific - fight tooth & claw to preserve their domain. You even had Qantas lobbing politician with "dirt sheets" on the M.E carriers, just prior to signing a deal with one of them (Olivia Wirth is Qantas's high flyer )

Bottom line is there is a limited amount of capital available as the footings for debt foir the entire business. The choice was made years ago to attempt to offshore the business, rather than invest in the mainline product. That choice is now bearing a bitter fruit. There is no transparency in the public accounts that enables independent validation of anything other than the Group P&L, it is a black box.

Everything else is an act of faith. I don't want vague statements that could be argued away with changes of definition, I want proper accounts with full footnotes, concrete numbers that have been audited. I will be happy to be shown any documentation that you can point to.

QANTAS is a member of the Oneworld alliance and their miles and status can be used on other alliance members where as Emirates are only allied with QF therefore the QANTAS program is probably the better one to be with unless you travel almost exclusively on EK/QF.

If you prefer the EK product you can book codeshare flights which results in less revenue for QANTAS compared to having you on their own aircraft.

However if Emirates were to join Oneworld you'd need to think again.

T-Vasi, Don't take this the wrong way but you look like you have been 'drinking the Kool aid' mate. Or believe the weekly company news letter's JQ put out...

JQ-
:ugh:

So will a kids lemonade stand when Mom and Dad buy the shop out and also provide the the shop, lemons, sugar etc.

Unfortunately QF has funded most Start up costs internationally , only to dilute share holdings later so IF any profits were ever made the business model still needs to recoupe losses. The original Business model would never take this into account so flawed from conception. EG, JQ Asia only profit was Leasing AC, that had no routes to fly, to JQ OZ :D , A330's persisting on loss making routes for years, having to buy Value Air to be able to fly to Indo.

Or the other way to do it keep pumping money in!
How much money into JQ Japan has been injected and reduced the 'investors' holding's lately.

JPacific,
To add to FYSTI, don't forget the AC VNA -198 , brand new A320 in Australian config, gifted to JPA to help get the Exec's out of jail! 40Million + write off from QF books.
No money gets back to QF, just to 'The Party'. It's only getting expanded because Vietjet has 4x it's size in 3 yrs and it's costing some Party members a new Rolls Royce :)

JQHK/ Red Q all a joke that need not be discussed due so many flaws in the approach in doing business in Asia.

FFRATS.

T-vasis,
Qantas will never see a profit in Vietnam. The government has complete control and will use the same accounting standards QF uses to ensure that JQ will never show a positive result. Any profits will go to the government.
My greatest wonder is that if JQ is going so well overseas ( it never has) then why is it that QF has to cough up for initial capital establishment costs and for further capital injections to prop them up. Based on your optimistic projections JQ should be easily able to fund these start ups.
I have never heard JQ mentioned once as providing capital to a brother start up. It is always QF.
What i would like to know is if anyone out there knows the actual capital injections, initial and subsequent, for Japan, Hong kong, Vietnam and singapore. I would also like to include here the loans qantas has made to its partners to 'facilitate' the start ups. ( this has happened at least in one case). Add all the losses accumulated minus the few profits and this will show a negative ROR! The figures, if anyone can provide them, will definitely show the disaster that has occurred o/s while Joyce has ignored mainline.

FRRTAS - You mean VN-A198 which is leased from AWAS - so not gifted to BL as they don't own it.
Jetstar Pacific VN-A198 (Airbus A320 - MSN 4459) | Airfleets aviation

Indeed not aware that JQ own any aircraft - they are all leased (that is part of their business model) - so even if a plane was diverted from AU to VN register, can't see a cost being anything near $40m.

indamiddle - Qantas Group provides the startup capital. Not JQ not QF, but the publicly listed company.

moa999
Agreed on lease. Not many company's own their fleet.
I'll re word, it was a 'gifted lease' then....diverted from OZ to help out QF/VN relationships after Fuel hedging excuse for Losses.

Interesting to see who pays the lease?

It is very grey the whole business process in VN, indamiddle is spot on about profit and actual returns to QF. (qf being the sector that shows the losses for the Qantas Group mistakes)

FFRATS.

FFRATS

Re JQ JP.

So far Qantas Group has contributed Yen 15 billion (AUD 160m) out of a total of Yen 33 billion in capital. Y4bn at startup, Y5.5bn in Nov 13 and another Y5.5bn in Nov14.

Loss year 1 was Y8.8bn, year 2 Y11.1bn and predicted loss year 3 between Y 9-10bn which will mean another capital call by Nov 15.

Japanese CEO was moved on in Feb and replaced by an Irishman from JQ OZ.

Watch this space.

ScootBiz on the 787 is fairly much permanently on sale for $299 each way. Sometimes they do $249.

Qantas Y on the 737 is currently on sale for $199 each way.

Both include Luggage, Food and IFE.

I know what I'd choose.

The Brits and the Irish used to run Tiger Airways in Australia and Singapore. And didn't that work out well :oh:

As an Irishman said to me "Us Irish think we are god's gift to aviation, and we are not!". What is suspected of being ability is pure B&^%$&t.

I believe Sir Tim has his eyes on the Pacific. If that's the case there will be nowhere safe for QF to operate to without EK having a big say.

A330-300s
 

Rumour is (from Snr Tech Crew), Qantas is looking at ex Skymark's Airbus A330-300s that are in storage (5 airframes with Trents all <2 years old). Maybe Qantas is looking at expanding the International fleet???