Would it happen here?
 

I know it is early days, and that reporting out of Europe is suggesting pilot suicide as a possible cause of the Germanwings crash (hyperbole or just wrong reporting).
How does the travelling public in Australia know that it won't happen here?
Do our carriers always have two up front in high capacity RPT?

Aww gees.



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• Air NZ changes cockpit policy following Germanwings crash

(Fairfax NZ | 2:54PM - Friday, 27 March 2015)

11 events in 40 years..

ASN News » List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots

By changing the procedures, the company is admitting it doesn't trust its pilots!

A better procedure would be when a toilet break is required, both of you leave the cockpit together! That way, no one can fiddle with the buttons! :ugh:

Air India pilot 'left hostesses in cockpit while he slept in business class' - Telegraph

So by this reasoning, it's safer to have no one up there then to leave the cabin crew in charge... :D:=:E:ugh:

When will we be demanding all our land public transport vehicles are dual control, dual driver... just in case one of those drivers decides to do the old untethered vehicular bungy off a mountain or bridge.

Sometimes, bad things happen. That's life. Everybody has to put their trust in somebody, eventually.

Let's rule out a few other medical conditions before we all jump on the suicide bandwagon.

The French Military (ie French Government) seem keen to push the idea that it was a suicide mission without even doing a autopsy or any other sort of investigation.

From what the newspapers say he seems a normal pilot started gliding at 15 learnt to fly overseas, and was pretty fit and normal kinda guy.

Bizarre that he wants to suicide in an instant with no real other motive or indication

Then divide 11 by the number of RPT flights that have occurred over the last 40 years and it becomes a very small number............................

That list doesn't include GA or helicopter deliberate crashes. I remember one in Alice Springs some years ago, flew into the hangar I believe.
A helicopter pilot I knew well was having woman trouble, so he went to the airfield early, started up a Bell 412, climbed up to about 1000 ft & dived vertically into the ground.
Sadly these mentally disturbed people do kill themselves but too many are happy to kill others with them.

This pilot was stood down for several months for depression whilst training a few years ago. He was declared fit to return to flying.

If we include GA that number gets even smaller

On what are they supposed to do an autopsy?

Thank you. Exactly.

When you think about it (and hopefully most of us haven't, up to now), if an airline pilot wants to crash the aircraft, they will find a way. Doesn't matter if Tiffany the F/A or Kev the ASO is in the jump seat. Doesn't matter if it's a Boeing or an Airbus. Doesn't even matter if the other pilot is in their seat, it would simply be a matter of picking the right time in the right phase of flight.

So whatever action they take, it won't achieve anything beyond convincing some people that Something Is Being Done. And adding even more pointless frustrations and irritations to the business of operating aircraft.

So what I'm hearing is, you believe 4U9525 would have crashed into the mountainside even if the captain had not left his seat the entire flight?

Agreed, there are few things more frustrating than hearing your children were murdered by a mentally ill rogue pilot while they were flying home from a school trip, except perhaps being on board the aircraft when it is flown into the side of the Alps :mad:

Are we really to accept it is simply a case of "**** happens"?

Common sense says that it is a bad idea to have a single person locked behind a door that can only be opened from the inside. It costs nothing to have a cabin crew member go into the flight deck when one of the flight crew needs to leave and it provides a level of protection should the remaining pilot suffer from some sought of collapse. I find it hard to believe that it is not already common policy by all thinking airlines. It has nothing to do with trusting pilots and would not stop a determined deranged pilot from pointing a plane at the ground but it might just make the deluded person think twice when they are not alone.

Now possibly allowing a deranged flight attendant in on the cockpit when it is most vulnerable.

Where does it end.

Pilotless airliners of course

Just so sad!
I think it could happen anywhere.

Really opens a can of worms regarding flight crews
These events seemed scarcer when we had flight engineers in the cockpit. Perhaps another presence does make a difference?
Whatever the answer , I would like the aircrew community ( pilots, cabin crew), to work on a outcome before it gets taken out of our hands by the lawyers and auto flight manufacturers .

Most trusted profession
 

I wonder how far down the list we'll drop........?

Either you have a meaningful, practical, effective solution, or yes, you accept that "**** happens" (and that while appalling, the incidence of this sort of thing is statistically miniscule). Kneejerk bull**** that just gives the appearance of doing something simply doesn't cut it. As I said, if a pilot really wants the aircraft to crash, then that is what will happen. Any response to this should IMHO be looking at pilots' psychological health, so that these nutters don't find their way onto a flight deck. And that'll open a whole can of worms itself.

In the ADF it's called 'supervision'.

During my time working for a UK LCC, we had a cabin crew arrested by MI6 on suspicion of being part of a terrorist cell. That person was a male, pretty strongly built chap, looked like a gym rat.

The guy brought me a coffee in the cruise on several occasions, was always friendly enough. Everyone was pretty amazed to hear the news.

Obviously a lot of "holy-****" and "what-if" scenarios were discussed among the pilots in the days after his arrest.

We'll never know but I for one am very glad that there was NO policy requiring hosties to be left alone with one pilot at that time, because that would obviously have been the best time for the bad guys to attack.

What's the answer to that one, have TWO hosties up the front, one to supervise the other? Where does it end?

Bloody insanity, and I can't see an easy fix no matter how hard I look :uhoh:

The other problem is that Pysch testing is beatable. A would be terrorist or suicide candidate can always beat a pysch interview. The other issue is that even if you did pysch evaluation every year your whole world can fall apart two days later and you have 363 days until your next interview whilst dealing with whatever it is that hasn't worked out.

Plenty of Military types and spies have either switched teams or gone AWOL and they are under much higher scrutiny than pilots ever will be. End of the day you can't control all pilots and second guess what they might be feeling or doing. How do you reckon Edward Snowden's pysch evaluation/polygraph testing is looking right now?:}

I think two crew in the flightdeck will probably stop a spur of moment suicide but nothing is going to stop someone who is determine to take out everybody.

A number of economical solutions to faulty soggyware come to mind.

- Banning coffee for flight crew for the same periods alcohol is banned
- Shackles and diapers
- Tasers in the seats operated by CC and/or Company maintenance
- A big red button that gasses the pilots and sets up an automatic landing

So your in cruise get a flight attendant in the jumpseat. Next thing a TCAS RA descend, disconnect follow the commands , flight attendant freaks out next you have a crash axe spike embedded in your head. Of course this is a statistical almost impossibility but at the end of the day you can't regulate everything, there has to be someone where the buck stops.. There are rogue everyone's...

Wonder how long before CASA mandate carriage of a large Dog on the Flight Deck to prevent the remaining operator touching anything?

Back in the day, it was very difficult to become a successful pilot. Only a small percentage would have had the aptitude and mental fitness required for the job. Now, all you need is cash and with the basic training can be in a control seat of a jet within a year or two.

A seemingly valid observation.
It is a fact that the game has changed. Generation "now" with the added pressure of social media status and the perception of great importance and achievement that must be posted in the now..... Or never.

There is no way it could happen here.

Security Screening ensures pax are safe by making Pilots take off their watches and shoes.

I feel I should add I have full respect for the front line workers manning the security checkpoints. I always show them the respect they rightfully deserve. It is not their fault that DOTARS, their boss is not aware that pilots fly aeroplanes.

This accident is yet another example of what a wank it is to make Pilots go through security. What are they looking for? Are they checking that I don't have something in my pocket I may use to take control of the aircraft? Guess what DOTARS, I already have control of the aircraft.

Tossers!

Move the flight deck door back 1 metre and lav 1 becomes a flight deck toilet. Bean counters might not like it though.

That'll work well with QF's amazing A330 reconfiguration :rolleyes:

I wonder if this can highlight the need to get the focus on these paying for your job type schemes that need abolished from the industry worldwide.

The pressure of a cadetship/endo and associated debt, combined with the rigours of being an F/O in a LCC with the realisation that maybe flying isn't all it cracked up to be one can see how this may contribute to the onset of depression. Add to the fact other stressors in ones personal life stress we can easily see how some ill prepared young adults who thought they were walking into the golden life may be struggling with it all.

I stress none of the above reasons justifies any such behaviour that we have seen in France however do we really need added stressors to young adults entering the workforce.

And perhaps instead of just labelling the guy a nutter (assuming the current theorising is correct) we could consider that he was unwell, and may not have been rationally responsible for his actions.

Seriously Biggles?! It's all the cadets' fault? Of course, we knew it all along but now we have proof! Young, inexperienced, indebted pilots are more prone to breakdowns than more experienced ex-GA/Forces pilots who are impervious to finance and other psychological stressors. :rolleyes:
Please tell me I misunderstood you!

"do we really need added stressors to young adults entering the workforce."

Do we really need the added stressors of finance, job security, divorce, family illness, death or other personal issues applied to any of us, even those who are a little older and tough as nails? Fact is, that's life! We all deal with it differently. Some have more of a struggle doing so, which is no fault of theirs. I appreciate older "can" mean wiser but I don't buy the crap that a new-hire who "paid for his/her job" is more susceptible to psychological stressors than the rest of us.

One hundred and fifty souls have just been lost as a result of what appears to be a very lost one. How about we show a bit of tact as a group of professionals!

Imo you can thank the bean counters for the problem in the first place. Do you think airlines hire 500hr pay to fly F/O's because it costs them more, or less??

p.s 2plus, at least if the condition was with the pilot the whole time there is more chance of it beimg observed before he/she has 100+ souls in his/her care.

Would it happen here?

Those who've been around long enough probably, and sadly, recall the Connellan [Connair] Alice Springs tragedy back in the 70's.....

Connellan air disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possibly. I think it's also just as possible it may still go unnoticed, which is what appears to have been partly the case in this tragedy. What signs do you look for in someone to check if they're in the right frame of mind to operate? When would you pull them aside for a chat? Briefing? Before leaving the flight deck? Does one need to be suffering from a long-term underlying condition before they one day decide to look for a release, perhaps from the effects of a more recent stressful event?

It's not uncommon for sufferers of mental illnesses such as depression to not give any "tells". If this bloke did indeed have "issues", then from what I've seen of the footage, there were at least some who were close to him yet found it completely out of character for him. I heard he took a break from training. Obviously he was later found fit to continue. Could happen to any of us, new recruit or veteran.

Exactly, lets not forget previous examples:
Egyptair -FO was 59yrs old and had 12'000hrs
Silkair - Captain had 20 years experience, former fighter instructor pilot
JAL and LAM Mozambique - both Captain's involved in those incidents

These are so rare they are statically unmeasurable, but is shows it just that it isn't a phenomena of low hour pilots.

FedEx 705 had three on the flight deck.

It was the jumpseat guy that went berserk with hammers and had a speargun as backup....

Where do you start????