Sunstate EBA 2014
 

No one has started a thread yet, hopefully this could be a positive and mutually respectful avenue for open and thought provoking discussion.

Time to level it
 

We definitely need to "level the playing field" to put as AT LEAST on par with VARA.

Ha! Dream on. Eastern 2013 EBA has gone no where in the last 16 months.

So when are we getting jets?

Cobham? Oh wait I meant QLink...

Single aisle bandied around no doubt...

No point flying at all if you cant pay your way in life. Lets face it, the way an employer shows they value an employee is by paying them what they are worth, or is that already happening???? Why is it pilots seem ever willing to accept little reward for a lot of hard work and continued effort. The Eastern and Sunstate EBA's are important in that they will set the standard that future/ other operators run with.

With each agreement there is less cash for discretionary spending, what other industry gives you that? The car park is full of pilots cars, nice car = living in a rented flat, piece of junk = paying off a flat. That's where this is heading in the short term, longer term it gets worse especially when you decide to start a family and drop one income.

SN

The co have already stated that all future deals will be based on the old rates at that time and not some hypothetical increase the pilots may have had in the mean time. Its all available on the AFAP website if you are a member. They seem to call all the shots in their time and on their terms and to be honest I doubt that will change this time around either. We are still lined up 10 deep at the counter to get in to boot!

SN

Of course there's that elephant in the room. All you guys have to do is load the gun and avoid it stepping on you until you're ready to fire!

It's always been about leverage. To the casual observer it doesn't appear like you have that much, but looks can be deceptive. Very deceptive.

Good luck boys and girls. Don't give them any quarter, because they sure as Hell won't give any to you. :ok:

"Tell 'im he's dreaming"

"Get ya hand off it Darryl"


Please leave the emotion of "jets" out of this.

It 'ain't likely to happen and if it does, who cares. If jets did arrive some time before the next Ice Age, a very small % would actually get a go. Those who have already been there a long time and those who got the job in the last 5 yrs aged 25 would get a shot 15yrs from now.

The vast majority in the middle may have a seniority shot a couple of years before retirement. Would you really want to hit the books and go through the "pineapple process" just to earn some extra coin in the last couple of years before retirement. No thanks, don't need the stress at age 60.

This EBA process is about Dash 8's, end of story.

Anything else is just a distraction, a distraction that the pilot group have bought about on themselves mostly, to be honest.

Management must be laughing their heads off?

Both QLink EBA's will be about 1 thing really. Rostering and working hours.

The Jetstar management are hell bent on having regional pilots work 14 hr shifts and do 4 or 5 day trips. The regional lifestyle is under attack and I think a massive dust-up will ensue.

Deafstar
14 hours won't happen, period. I think this EBA will be about one thing, MONEY! The company may try and muddy the water with various other issues but at the end of the day money will be the main game. It will probably go on and on for a couple of years before the pilots accept something like 3 * 3 * 3 with backpay. There will be no PIA or work to rule or anything like that either, they are just not that type of group!

TW

If you want to fly a jet apply to Cobham, they are the "preferred operator" according to JG.:ok:
As for the Eastern EBA, the I fear the sooner PIA is commenced the sooner things will happen:ugh::ugh:

or JETGO, they have taken a couple ex Qlink guys now :ok:

If the company isn't prepared to pay the money then id expect lifestyle rostering and flexibility in the agreement.

If the company want a pound of flesh, they can pay the money for it!

That's how I'm looking at it these days.

You cant eat or use "lifestyle, rostering and flexibility" to pay off your house!
TW

Vote with your feet then.

TGG
Mate voting with your feet will not fix this problem, you need only look at the last 10 years of massive pilot turnover to see that. Sooner or later the pilot group will have to band together and stand there ground to create a better future. The days of accepting second class deals to get new equipment and fast track your career must stop. Turnover is now very low and most who are in sunny's will will there for a while so this is the only way to a better lot in life!

If they don't they can only blame themselves.

TW

That's so true Goblin, problem is that most of us can't do that we are trapped and the company know it. Heck no one is employing seriuosly at the moment.
Mike's brother

Sunstate EBA 2014
 

If the company wants to get rid of Sunstate's CAO48 clauses they can bloody well pay the price for it. It's genius that they are in there individually.

FRMS + CAO48 clauses in the EBA creates terribly restrictive rostering options. They need them removed and it has to be a significant increase - a SIGNIFICANT increase - for me to vote those clauses out.

Vote with your common sense!
 

Well said BB,

this EBA is about shoring up your rights and entitlements, and you are one of the last CAO 48 people that have that enshrined in their EBA. Don't lose it - it is gold. If the company wants to introduce FMSs, that is between them and CASA. You guys get to benefit both ways; FMS says you can't fly - you can't fly. CAO 48 says you can't fly - you can't fly. They disagree? You can't fly.

Next time you have an early sign-on, look for the off-going JetShaft crew. Do you want to be like zombies?

Download and read the Fair Work Act - it's just like CARs, and if you can't read them, then you shouldn't be where you are. The LAW is the over-riding thing here, and the LAW says that you cannot be disadvantaged unless you agree to it. Draw a line in the sand behind your current EBA, and then get better pay and conditions.

Always remember, from the FWA commissioners' viewpoint, if you vote UP an EBA then that is a show that the majority 100% support it. If you support it less than 100%, vote no.

Qantas can be taken on - I've done it and won. Just remember "yes" means 100% committal and agreeance from you and your (future) family. NO means I'm not totally happy.

Good Luck all, I think you need to think hard on this,

Ned

Eastern EBA Update
 

Hey guys, if you haven't seen Eastern's update from this weekend, jump on the AFAP website and have a squizz.

Company refusing to backdate pay freeze if agreement not reached by NYE.
Company offering nothing to recognise CAO48.1 + FRMS.

Lol.

Rename thread Qantaslink EBAs. Surely changes to work rules are worth a decent percentage. Otherwise why would any pilot vote up an EBA that sees him work more for no pay increase? It stinks of Oldmeadow.

Qantaslink has long been an absolute cash cow for Qantas. I can't see them risking that if the QL crews start parking them. A perfect storm of EBAs!

You only have to look at what the company has done to the Sunny engineers.
Exactly like the threats are now. Engineers still on 2009 eba but they had to increase pay to get more engineers to cover increased work/aircraft.

To the guys and gals of Sunnies and Eastern, for god sake show them you have a set and stand up for yourselves! These two documents are the last remotely decent EBA's in the Australian regional Airline industry. Ask yourself, do you really want to work in an industry where you have virtually no rights and crap conditions for life? You'll never get back what you give away, ever!

These agreements are the end game for the regional's here, if they get this the industry is shot. I surely hope you have a good pilot council on this one.

TW

CAO48 as it is enshrined in the EA is most definitely the "Elephant" in the room. Make no mistake, the company see the introduction of the FMS as a golden opportunity. Unlike Optimiser it will provide real productivity increases. Like Optimiser it will also drastically change pilots lifestyles, and not for the better either.

The problem is, it will probably be unworkable due to that pesky CAO48.

I know (says management), lets pretend it's just a minor issue and continue to paly hardball. What a bunch of D!ckhe@ds! They should be kissing the pilot group's collective arses about now.

Get ready for some pain QLink management. By underestimating the Union negotiators your FMS is about to become one giant Clusterf#ckl!

Good luck everyone, I reckon you have them by the B@lls. They're just too dumb/arrogant to realise.

Don't forget there's an umpire!
 

The Fair Work comissioners hear arguments based upon the law at the time. If you can demonstrate that you have incresed productivity since your last EBA, if you can demonstrate that even CPI increases have not been passed on to you - when they have been to many industries - if you can demonstrate that Alan is singling out employees as a cost-cutting measure, then you can gain something here.

FWA cares not how Alan and his board makes money, nor whether they do or do not. The managements' job is to steer the ship, and if fuel costs went up to $300 a barrel, you would still continue.

To assume that workers costs do not rise is simply bullying tactics, and the simplest of those is "Be thankful that you have a job." I remember one J-shaft EBA when we tied our bonuses to those of QF execs. 747 captain mates in QF got $2000 annual bonus. As an A320 F/O I got $8500. Snouts in troughs, ladies and gentlemen.

If there is a trough - put your snout in. The survival of the company isn't your job, neither should it be your concern. It is the job of the CEO, management, and the board, and IMHO it is about time they got off their collective loathesome spotty behinds and started running an airline!!!

Sheeez! Sorry if I went over the top there, but all I'm saying to you all is think, OK?

Cheers,

Ned

There are some guys saying to me that we should have a 'unified front' (ala Eastern and Sunstate organising a joint PIA campaign). One must tread very carefully down that road as the umpire may consider that as collusion (which is illegal). If both groups just happen to enter PIA at the same time then that's just a bad coincidence for management :E

The whole divide and conquer mantra appears to be not in their favor at present as Qantas have 4 pilot group EBAs up for negotiation and/or vote. Pitting one group against the other isn't going to work for them. Stay strong, and victory is assured.

Vive la Révolution!

Fuel-Off :ok:

1. 4.5% pay cut

2. No over-night allowances

3. Bend over fatigue management so I work 10% more hrs in a given year (for that pay cut)



Awesome, where do I sign?



I think the Union should insist on a DAMP Test before any further negotiations with Management as they are obviously smoking Crack!

Negotiating a new agreement that coincides with another like section of a company is not unusual Fuel Off.

If the claims are similar then that really isn't an issue either as long as it's not pattern bargaining and the claims are in line with Fair Work Act requirements eg are 'permitted' matters. Then there is little that can withstand taking protected industrial action.

Sunstate EBA 2014
 

Yadot,

If I'm not mistaken the Air France pilots gave up the strike with no gains, and the company pushing ahead with LCC expansion. No idea why they'd give it up. That sure as **** won't be happening in the Rex/EAA/SSA/JQ/QF campaigns. I hope.

fpvdude
What makes you think EAA would want SSA on board given the history??

SN

History lesson for people such as fpvdude (disclaimer: as it was told to me):

Apology: I've been told (by someone I can trust) that "As it was told to me" is simply not correct, so I've deleted what I wrote.

Sorry again for any problems I caused with my post.


DIVOSH!

DIVOSH
That's it!

SN

15% you are dreaming DiVosh. I heard it was like 8%. Anyway, Kumar was never going to give Eastern the Q400 as I was told he hated the eastern militarism.

Also the SAME PEOPLE in the pilot council over the years negotiated EBA's with better conditions than Eastern. Maybe they are still there because they keep doing a good job?

Just wanted to clear that up.

The EAA / SSA thing is from yesteryear. It's a topic for reminiscing not debating.

Back to today. No-one AFAIK at EAA is going to sign away CAO48.1 without something else to replace it - money, lifestyle, days off, whatever. No-one at EAA is in a burning rush to get a new EBA signed either. It wouldn't surprise me if nothing much happens for another year or so, when Group HQ might start to take interest. Yawn.

I'm actually encouraged by the terms of the engineers' EBA. It's business as usual with a good dose of common sense on both sides.

Re the EAA SSA Q400 carry-on. I'll go out on a limb and say that only about 20% of current EAA pilots are from that EBA negotiation. Its like '89, except for butterflies.

"No-one AFAIK at EAA is going to sign away CAO48.1 without something else to replace it - money, lifestyle, days off, whatever."

DO NOT TRADE CAO48 FOR ANYTHING.

I bet they'd trade it for a nice C-Series or A319! :p

Apologies.

Again, following on from information that I believe to be more accurate than I was told previously, I've deleted this post as well.


DIVOSH!