Qlink's future.
 

Recently a couple of senior pilots from EK with Boeing widebody time joined Qantaslink. They haven't joined to fly turboprops.

6 months ago 2 pilots left JQ to join Qantaslink in very senior positions.

Qantas Short Haul EBA is being negotiated.

Rumour has it, the 787's are to join Qantaslink. Not A320's or A319's as everyone thought earlier.

Discuss.

a family friend in the top 20 at qlink said something to me recently...

"mate we have been getting jets next year for the last 25 years"

if mainline wanted to get rid of pilots, they would have done it already. they need us. it was all about getting the best possible deal for the company before the 787 shows up. the next negotiations will show this as well.

of course....if we had a group seniority list then it wouldn't matter what part of the group they went to....

Hahahahhaa hahaha haHa ha:D

Wedcue,

IMHO I would be very surprised, When these individuals were interviewed for said positions, surely it would have been a discussion point during the interview process that "The Group" is evaluating putting the B787 into QLINK and what can "you" bring to the table??

And having said that, "loose lips sink ships" as the saying goes. And again surely if these discussions did infact transpire, then there would be some kind of "leak" or rumours circulating to the effect.

Just my HO of course, but the entire Seniority system and introduction of a new type onto an existing AOC with said very regimented seniority structure would not be worth the grief from the Company's point of view. A "Greenfields" set up would be a whole lot less hassle btw! If not, there is already another "Group" AOC which has HC Jet Ops already on it. Is it a coincidence that this AOC Holder is currently in the process of seeking RPT Approval from CASA???????

QFlink

A319's to leisure destinations & regional ports with QF livery & Link dropped from the signage.

Operating out of QF domestic terminal with an all economy cabin.

Oh hold on, wouldn't that compliment the mainline brand & compete with another subsidiary?

Compliments the internal banter I heard recently of mainline to QFlink LOA available for mainline drivers.

Lyell Strambie's pulling the strings at QFlink.


MC

Clarity required me thinks...

An opportunity to get back home to Oz perhaps?

They were seconded into management positions (CP and CAR217 manager) because the previous management, famously 'The Bankstown Aero Club' couldn't handle a growing airline with a GA mindset. Q400 and its 'Jet-Like Speed' with C402 SOPs :mad:. Oh and they were constantly re-inventing the wheel again...and again...and again...and again...:ugh:

So is the Eastern EBA this year, which means F:mad:K all. I would say the 787 will be appended on the SH EBA...don't know if or is legal regarding the clauses in the LH EBA. Anyone care to elaborate? Keg?

And finally,

Have you been in the diesel oil again Wedcue?

On a side note though...
I find this a common topic being sprouted by Mainline drivers far more often the those in the regionals. We've all been part of a happy family for all of what...20 years? Since the merger of '93 (TN/QF). Group seniority from the regionals was approached to and subsequently shot down in flames with the ashes shat on and buried by the then upper echelons of the mainline piloting fraternity. So my question is why are the mainline drivers purporting this notion only now? The cynical me looks at the fact the QF drivers' careers/livelihoods is being threatened and SSA/EAA appears to be going nowhere but up. The merger was before my time so the politics of yesteryear shouldn't be factored into today's argument.

Keep the responses civil kids...

Fuel-Off :ok:

Didn't Strambie come out & say in the last fortnight or so he wants QF branded 787's flown by mainline pilots.

I have long been a supporter of a group seniority list because its the fairest system to provide promotional opportunities for all pilots in the Qantas group.

re strambie, apparently so!

Goodonyamate - very naive post!

Qlink will be a force in the next few years. As for needing us Mainline pilots - they won't need us as much when Qlink have Jets...

Setting up a cheaper operation is not as simple as just getting a cheaper group of pilots. Eventually the group of pilots want to be paid what their counterparts overseas are being paid, or they start leaving. The exception is a small market such as NZ, where they have limited success.

QF are smart enough to know this, and they know that they can get the 787 crewed for market rates (current somewhere between 767 & A330 rates would be a good guess). They know they need to pilots to crew it, although exec management are not feeding much information down the chain to those who set establishment levels. QF currently have the benefit of being able to use pilots leave balances with twofold benefits : 1) they reduce their liability, 2) they get to hang on to the crew they need down the track. Why would they make pilots redundant if they can reduce leave balances whilst keeping a sufficient level of crew for a probable future expansion plan.

They would have gotten rid of pilots by now if they didn't need them on an ongoing basis and both we and they know that if they did try to crew it cheaper, it would be a very expensive fight with little longer term gain.

Qlink do a great job at what they do and where they fly. I don't know if they will end up getting small jets, but I'm pretty confident they won't become a long haul operation overnight sometime in 2016.

I too wonder about said pilots and their real reasons for joining 'The Link'.

I was at a BBQ recently and a few of us found ourselves discussing said developments at 'The Link' and can confirm that one of the guys present who isn't quite in a senior management position but has his finger on the pulse reckons that there have been a few guys join lately that have said widebody experience.

Methinks there could be some interesting times ahead :ok:

Watch this space.

Crap, bull and rubbish.

So, some EK Pilots decide to grab a job in Oz at management level on fair pay and you think that means QLink are getting Jets!!

Maybe these Pilots just wanted a reasonable job back home and this is what they could get. Not much else on offer especially if you like the management lifestyle.

2+2 doesn't = 5. :D

Ahh now I get it you give Jetstar some Q400s to run domestic in NZ for a direct swap of some A320s.

I guess the rumors get wild when a company has no leadership or direction.

Rumours get wild when management keep their cards very close to their chest. JG has openly said new jet equipment will be sourced and utilised in the future to meet capacity requirements. As to who crews them...that's another story.

Fuel-Off :ok:

EK guys wanting to come home (and that's most of them after about 7 years) will take just about anything if there is a base that suits them. Any "shiny jet syndrome" is well and truly worn off - and would happily swap a depressing 0200 departure for a solar powered Q400. :ok:

Good wind up, but I wouldn't read anything more into it. :suspect:

Fuel-Off. You're new to prune compare to some of us. A lot went on in the decade before you joined- although I do acknowledge the possibility of a different handle. If you've been around a while though, surely you would have read QF pilots agitating for a group list long ago? Heck, it was a formal part of our EBA submission in 2007 and 2008. So lets drop the 'only now' stuff. Some of us have been banging on about it for nearly a decade and a half.

As to the 787 being negotiated on the SH EA? I wouldn't think so. There are already provisions in the LH EA around the introduction of new types. FWA basically told QF and AIPA to negotiate 787 rates when they start negotiating again for the EA to commence from 2015.

Thanks Keg for that clarification. Let's hope something decent comes out of the EA negotiations in '15.

I'm a long time reader (been in the industry for about 15 years), recent poster here at prune and like yourself have noticed a change to a want for group seniority. As for the 'only now' stuff, I think that may have been misconstrued as something said in cynicism, that wasn't the intent. Perhaps a politically neutral phrase like 'in recent times' is more apt. :O

So we know the whole jet thing is a red herring. A318/A319 is plausible..ish. 787 is stuff worthy of a Benny Hill sketch.

QF Group seniority has been brought up in these forums time and time again with all of them disintegrating into belligerent, petty squabbles with at least one group accusing the other of doing something over 20 years ago and apparently that's the reason we can't change something for the better NOW. Is it possible for both AIPA and AFAP to approach the table with a clean slate and start deliberating on how group seniority can work for our future ranks of pilots? No self-serving ulterior motives or puppet string pulling from either side (the war that can't be mentioned, shouldn't). A mutually agreed and beneficial proposal can then have a staggered introduction to each groups EA when it comes for renegotiation (EAA and SH this year; SSA next and LH the year after). VIPA and the AFAP managed something in their last EBA (albeit with some objections, but you can't please everyone.)

The EBA submissions the LH had put forward to FWA recently regarding a pseudo-group seniority was a great step forward, however I think it was slightly interpreted by the other groups as one-sided. As I read it, (happy to be corrected - this is after all, an adult conversation) pilots could go from other QF subsidiaries to mainline provided that they have LWOP provisions in their respective EBAs. Well, no one else does! (I know JQ have something regarding to moving to other facets of the JQ business abroad and not losing their seniority back home). It's a big thorn on the side of the regional pilots, to which management flat out refuses to negotiate on. Career progression is a biggie, as seen in the EAA survey results just recently. The younger pilots of tomorrow would love to be able to eventually move on to mainline or JQ and stay within the group. There's nothing wrong with a senior JQ or QF skipper wanting to go into semi-retirement on a Q400 (it's a fun speed boat :ok:).

But then I wake up to reality...QLink management (previously anyway) won't merge the EAA and SSA seniorities when the pilot groups agreed on a proposal!:ugh: I know this post is a tad optimistic or read, naïve. But I hope this is just something to start a constructive debate on.

Fuel-Off :ok:

There is a rumour going round the traps that a few senior qlink folk will be jumpseating sectors at jq in the coming weeks to 'observe' airbus procedures....

Qantaslink all ready operate Jets. 13 in the
fleet last time I checked with 5 more on their way due
for delivery by the end of this year. QF have just
invested in new cabin refurbs and and extra 10 seats.
Don't see the Boeing 717 disappearing to soon. :hmm:

airbus procedures shouldnt be confused with jq procedures :}

Qantaslink, operate 717's through Cobham a company they don't own.

Question will a Group Seniority List be on a Date of Joining basis? because there are a lot SSA & EAA pilots who have been around a long time.

If it did i imagine it would be branched/a bunch of 'Y's...

Out of interest, where would 30 years get you in Mainline?

380 capt, depending on what happens with the 744 phase out.

..

Edit: on the face of it but based on how the qf LH/SH integration happens, it wouldnt necessarily be straight up like that.

And you have to remember that qf dont allow 'vertical promotion' so you'd need tp take into account a policy such as that may apply regarding any large steps.

On that note, i have heard that the much maligned 'no vert promotion' policy may be on its last legs.... :}

Forgetting the vertical promotion issue for a moment, command slots in mainline also have min requirements of mainline flying.:hmm:
If any 30 year Dash pilots think they could go straight to a 380 command they really are dreaming (as some were back in 1992!):ugh:
They could get an F/O slot and in a couple of years a command.
Group seniority would be an overall good thing for pilots but the company only sees possible cross training costs.:rolleyes:

QLink can't crew the aircraft they currently have let alone a new type. Word is a direct entry captain will be joining the cairns base.

If, and that is a very big if, jets did come, they would be additional to the current fleet not replacements. The said jets would be used to replace the 737-400s and operate to regional ports such as alice, isa and mackay. As such, how do they expect to crew them.

Do QF have minimum upgrade requirements?

Seniority should be eliminated equally everywhere in all airlines worldwide, it's the bane of the pilots existence and causes so much unnecessary grief the positives it may bring are out weighed by the negatives. There may be some professions left that use it (although I can't think of any off-hand) but I believe it's use is outdated and a hindrance to our collective cause whether we like to recognise and accept it or not.

Eliminating it is unlikely happen for the time being unfortunately. Call me a free market radical.:hmm:

I doubt anyone high up in QLink has any desire to head to mainline.

Like I said, the question was out of interest only! :ok:

Statement is now correct. :ok:

After almost 35 years in this industry, I am still learning new terms. What is vertical promotion please?

Promotion on type SOPS. eg. 744 S/O to 744 F/O to 744 Capt.

The idea of stopping vertical promotion was to make guys take promotion onto a lower aircraft type eg. 744 S/O to 767 F/O to 744 F/O or forever remain in their current rank. The sad reality is that PROMOTION to a lower rated aircraft may actually result in a pay CUT. A senior A380 S/O actually earns more than a junior B767 F/O even though they're on the same award. It's a system that rewards mediocrity.

Cost Index,
Said like someone with no seniority in the airline they wish to retire at!:rolleyes:

why stop with that statement, it goes further than that! I've a mate who is a very senior s/o on the 80 and he says it directly compares to some (dead junior) 80 f/o's :hmm: seems a bit rich to me but he's swears it. nuthin but LAX and DXB now.

Thanks for the expanation IsDon:ok:

Why S/O's take home more......
 

As most would be aware the hourly rate for 380 S/O's is less than an F/O on any other fleet however (at least until the introduction of DXB) the 380 S/O's are doing the maximum 175 hours per Bid Period -how the hours are calculated is irrelevant - compared to 160 hours or less for most other ranks and fleets. That's virtually a 10% premium right there.

In addition to that, almost every time they jump on the jet they are there for 15 hours, thus accumulating another 4 hours+ in additional hourly pay (aka: overtime). With 4 or 5 trips per bid period that's a further 40-50 hours or more, or at least another 20-25% on top of base pay.

Most F/O's on any other fleet would be lucky to accumulate 10 or 15 hours overtime hence the apparent pay disparity. With the introduction of DXB, 380 F/O's who would get some o/time SIN-LHR-SIN, now get a fair bit more but most are only doing 2 trips to LHR per bid period after assigned leave rears its ugly head.

Despite that, my impression is that most S/O's on the 380 would accept the take-home pay cut for a window seat.

.......now back to Qlink's future........

Cost index, seniority keeps the brown nosers, bullsh?t artists, spivs and family members on the same playing field as the rest. The two sheltered workshops that I have had the misfortune to be associated with that were open slather were a blight on the industry. Seniority may not be perfect but it is way better than nothing.:eek:

To completely mangle the great Churchill's words relating to democracy, the seniority system is the worst system ever for promotion- except for every other system. :ok:

And..... Let's get back on topic - that being Qantaslink.