QF Metals MOU for Cat A
 

I hope I misheard this today - but I understand that the Qantas Metals Unions have taken the first step to hand complete industrial power to Qantas by attempting to allow Cat A LAMEs into their agreement.

All this signed up on a flight to Dubai and fuelled by Tattinger Champagne and a Neil Perry main course followed by a corporate mile high massage.

It is apparently known as the AME Scab agreement 2013.

Anyone know more?

You seem surprised ? :ugh:

The soft unions can go and agree to anything they like but ultimately the Engineers will have to vote yes. That will not be a given considering it is an agreement to turn them into a roving band of strikebreakers.

You seem to have a lot of confidence. There's a hard core bunch of "reps" that are more concerned in getting in as much overtime instead of doing some hard yakka and study to advance their careers. That plus the fact that its not only engineers that vote on the metals EBA its also the other classifications that will vote for whatever if they get a tickle in their pockets from QF.

The selfish soft union Reps are not well appreciated by their workmates. Neither will be their advice. If the AMEs sign away their own future with a yes vote and become strike breakers it will be their own doing.

Cat A will be implemented, no stopping that!

Sorry......

Why are the metals involved, Rumour has it the cargo loaders will have the
CAT A, due to the AMEs being over qualified and way to expensive. A CAT A only requires Cert 11 training AMEs are Cert 4.

Has it been officially determined which union will represent the CAT A guys?
Technically they're LAME's so I would think they should fall under the ALAEA's wing.

Who represents them at Virgin?

This seems a bit like a baited thread to me.

'A' Licence coverage
 

going down-under


I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that 'A' Licences will be implemented.

What is in dispute is which union has legitimate coverage of the classification.

Our careers as licenced and unlicenced aircraft maintenance engineers are at a crossroads.

Qantas' desire to have the 'A' Licence covered by any union other than the ALAEA is motivated ultimately by the desire to cut costs. Great news if you are a shareholder or on a management contract because it means you should enjoy a boost in earnings as a result.

Bad news if you are an AME or LAME employed by Qantas because your career and earning potential will be cruelled.

For AME's thinking about voting yes for any agreement that results in the ALAEA not having coverage of the 'A' Licence, I respectfully request you think long and hard about the medium to long term ramifications.

Forget about the bluster around being labelled as roving strikebreakers - that will only happen once every three to four years when the ALAEA EB is in negotiation. People calling you names shouldn't bother you.

What you should be concerned about is the impact on your career and earnings potential if all Licenced staff are not covered by the one agreement.

With regard to AME delegates, they should be acting in your best interests, not in the interests of the union officials. Truly good and effective union delegates are a rare thing and they should be supported by the members. Bad union delegates are...well, bad and should be removed by the members.

Whenever a new classification is created, their will always be a fight amongst the unions about who should cover it (and receive the union fees and increased industrial presence that follows).

As I have said before, it is easy for any reasonable person to see that the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association is the union that should cover the 'A' Licence classification.

I believe the AMEs and LAMEs at Virgin are reprsented by ALAEA. I spoke to a mate at Virgin recently, although they have Cat A in their current EBA, apparently they havent gone down the Cat A road at this stage.

To any AME reading this, you should think long and hard about who you take advice from and who is representing you. Look at them and consider if that is where you want your career headed.

Do you aspire to be a LAME (of any sort) one day, earning decent coin? Or do you want to be spineless, disrespected, short sighted and rely on ridiculous amounts of OT to get a decent wage?

Is your rep helping your career advancement or lining his own pockets with OT $$$ while everyone else is trying to save their jobs.

Even a parked truck can't knock sense into some people... :ugh:

Dear oh dear, JA1. After reading your last contribution, I seriously doubt any AME aspires to be an insulting, condescending, sort of LAME.
Are you a plant from one of the AME unions?

Having worked in outside industry and then working in aviation - I was very surprised and confused upon embarking in my career as an AME.

The 'us and them' attitude, and treatment, that does exist between AME's and LAME'S where I am employed will only work in the company's favour in introducing the Cat A licence.

I don't understand how it came to be that AME's and LAME'S were represented by different Unions. Shouldn't it have been united we stand?

But I guess that's is all irrelevent now.

Even though I will reject the proposal, it will be voted in, without a doubt.

I would have thought the current court action covering membership and coverage would have precluded an agreement around cat A LAMES let alone a vote?

I'm confused? Does this mean that all the B1.1/B2 LAMES at QF who will also be utilising their A Licences, will be covered by 2 different EBA's?

Silverado makes a valid point. In fact qf already has an army of engineers with A cat licences ready to go. You might be a B cat on 744 but you can be task trained on all other types and use your A cat.

Every reference to A cat certifiers in all the CASA regs calls them "licenced engineers"
There is no debate as to who should represent these LAME's.

Except that the AMEs will outnumber the LAMEs so therefore it will become a AME union by default and dilute any LAME power. Given that LAMEs have much more responsibility they are probably entitled to setup their own union to look after their needs.

This will work surprisingly well, and if it's possible to to eliminate the LAME completely from the workplace, then that will help too!!!
After all, why cause a delay in aircraft departure when you can just ignore the fluid leaks, cracks, and missing parts. You don't have to have engineers for pre flight checks and if it looks OK, it probably is.
The only drawback is WHEN a "smoking hole" appears, someone is going to have to fill in a report.

Gee, it just doesn't get simpler than that, and you can take the money and run.

What's more, those who might get caught up in the wash out can sleep soundly knowing that this company will back you to the hilt.

For those who have some interest but are wondering what the thread is about, here is the content of a notice we oput out today -

ALAEA - Notice 12/2013 - Qantas Members - Qantas AME Wage Agreement

ALAEA members have recently contacted the Association in relation to the current offer from Qantas for a new wage Agreement titled Qantas Airways Limited (AWU, AMWU, CEPU) Enterprise Agreement 9. The ALAEA have been locked out of these discussions for legal reasons and cannot represent our members directly or indirectly. We can give advice and next week, when voting commences, you will be able to express your views by telling the company that the offer on the table is unacceptable.

Background
Traditionally the AME Agreements are negotiated 12 months after the LAME Agreements. Because LAMEs tend to have more industrial influence over the airline due to their licences, outcomes in recent times have generally been won by LAMEs through disputes; such as those in 2008 and 2011. After the LAME Agreements are settled, the same wage rises (a combination of level increases and percentage-based pay rises) are also applied to AMEs, Workshop Engineers and Trades Assistants. The other group covered by the AME Agreement are some Technical and Supervisory staff who have always been seen by the airline as compliant, second class citizens and hence the airline haven’t even applied the same combination of level and percentage-based rises to that classification.

To break this cycle, Qantas have concocted a plan to remove the ability for LAMEs to fight for those extra increases that have traditionally flowed on to the AME groups. It involves the manipulation of the new A licence personnel who are classed as LAMEs by CASA but are conveniently being called “unlicensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers with a licence” so they can be covered by this new AME Agreement. The Agreements are deliberately offset so that when B1/B2 LAMEs are fighting to get us all fair wage outcomes, the A licenced LAMEs will be used by the airline as strike-breakers to take away our ability to win any dispute.

If this offer is accepted, the future ability of any of us to achieve fair wage outcomes or job security will be taken away. This will have a demonstrative impact on LAMEs, AMEs, Workshop Engineers and Trades Assistants. We recommend that you look past the initial carrot and consider the future impact of this offer and reject it entirely. You are already deserving of the base wage increases on offer as they were the same ones that applied to LAMEs. With AME wages so low we would have expected the increase in percentage terms to be higher than what they have offered. This outcome will only see the difference between AME and LAME wages widen further.

Career Ending Decision
We appreciate that many people to be covered by this Agreement may not wish to be B1 or B2 LAMEs. The negative impact for you is explained above. In summary the ability for us to fight for better wages and conditions that have always applied to you will be taken away as this offer creates a pool of strike-breakers.

For those who do wish to attain further qualifications, acceptance of this offer will end your ability to become a B classified LAME and your future wage earnings will be severely restricted. If this Agreement is accepted, A licenced LAMEs will be able to certify for 90% of the Line Maintenance tasks that B LAMEs do. There will be no need for Qantas to offer you full training courses and we do not expect them to validate self-training you may wish to do to attain a B1 or B2 licence.

The current LAME Agreement (WD 2012) can and should be used as the wage Agreement for A licences. This offer is being made to prevent you accessing the LAME Agreement and payments. Not only is it well short of the amount you should receive as a base rate LAME, they are not offering progression through the LAME pay structure for years of service and you will not receive the normal pay rises entitled to LAMEs as they become licenced on a multiple number of aircraft. The difference between getting paid under the LAME Agreement and the proposed Agreement is outlined below.

Currently the LAME wage Agreement should be used as A licence holders are LAMEs (as defined by CASA) and they will hold ratings on various aircraft. Whether you are an Aircraft Worker/Trades Assistant who obtains a Cat A licence or an AME with one, provision is currently available to pay you under the existing LAME Agreement as per the 4th column of the table below.

The third column is what Qantas wants to pay a Level 14 Mechanical AME holding an A licence if you accept their offer based on him/her holding the highest A licence payment of $115 per week. The second column is for a Trades Assistant on the top Level 7 with the lower A licence level of $70 per week. An example of an Aircraft Worker/Trades Assistant in this role could be one working, and certifying for tasks carried out, in the cabin.


Lvl 7 T/A holding first level A licence (current offer) - always $50,596
Lvl 14 AME holding A licence(current offer) - always $69,888
Paid under the existing LAME Agreement - $73,216 upwards

1st A licence (738)$50,596........ $69,888......... $73,216
2nd A licence (767)$50,596.........$69,888.........$77,948
4 years as LAME $50,596.............$69,888.........$82,680
3rd A licence (744)$50,596...........$69,888........$87,360
4th A licence (A330)$50,596..........$69,888.......$92,144
7 years as LAME$50,596.................$69,888......$97,032
5th A licence (A380)$50,596............$69,888......$109,356

The table clearly demonstrates the reason why the company want you to accept this offer. Of course the difference between what you should be earning and what they want you to earn is greater when shift penalties are added. The table shows that the maximum you could ever earn as a Mechanical LAME will be permanently capped at $69,888 (subject to CPI adjustments).

The offer does not specify that the training would go to trade-qualified AMEs, it will allow the company to train Trades Assistants as A licence LAMEs and still pay them at existing T/A rates with the A licence allowance. The $70-$115 A licence allowances do not increase with wage increases and, unlike the A licence Agreement at Virgin, there is no obligation for the company to offer full B training after two years as A licence-holders; in fact there is no obligation to ever provide B training.

Because of the way the Agreement has been written (with the ability for non-trades people to obtain the A licence) Qantas would no longer need to employ reasonable levels of Apprentices. Instead they could put people on short traineeships and two years later they could become Aircraft Workers/Trades Assistants with A licences on the lower wage levels. This, in turn, will limit career opportunities for existing AMEs to move around to different sections. In the words of Qantas management when discussing this issue with the ALAEA they said – Why would we give A licences to AMEs, they are too valuable.

Tech Salaried Positions within the Agreement
We are unsure why but again the company seems to be forgetting the persons in Technical or Supervisory classifications. Qantas LAMEs and now Qantas AMEs have been given offers of a level (worth 5%), 3%, level (worth 5%) and 3%, the Tech classifications have only been offered 3% each year with a slight adjustment worth 1.5% to those in level 4. The ALAEA considers that all people within Engineering should be valued appropriately and treated equally with regards to pay increases.

Your consideration of a yes or no vote for this agreement is extremely important. Whilst we may not be allowed to represent your interests currently, you can represent yourself by rejecting this offer. The company will be encouraging you to vote yes because they will save money and turn LAMEs working under two separate Agreements against each other as strike-breakers.

This is not about getting back at some current LAME you don’t like, in doing so you will only harm yourself. This is not about protecting the wages of existing LAMEs, they will always be covered by the higher paid LAME Agreement. This is not about securing a few extra dollars now; this is about your entire career. It will be too late in ten years’ time to turn back the clock when you are licenced on every Qantas aircraft and only getting paid the equivalent of $69,888. This company are trying to suck you in today.

All people working within Engineering deserve a better outcome than the one currently on offer. Let the airline know that you weren’t born yesterday by voting NO to this strike-breaking offer.

Please make this thread sticky!
 

Hi Mods,

Could you please make this thread sticky for a week or two.

Very important info for engineering staff at QF and possibly elsewhere if a precedent is set.

Thanks.

Fedsec, is there currently a court case underway regarding which union had the right to represent workers who are to be employed under an A licence?

I'd be surprised if a cat A holder could afford to join a union. Some of the guys I have heard of are paid very poorly.

There's been a few court cases.

They tried to stop up signing up any AME's in FWA and failed.

They tried to stop us saying we could represent AMEs and Cat A's in Fed Court and most likely would have won, we settled and agreed not to represent until our rules were changed.

We have an active applicatio in to change our rules, waiting on court dates.

Another case will start if they try and register this current offer as an Agreement because we say that Cat A people should be covered under the LAME Agreement.

Lucky we have our in house solicitors now as per original election platform although it is still expensive with Barristers. Have been told by a leader of one of the AME unions that if we are successful changing our rules, they will challenge it all the way to the High Court.

its crazy to think, if most of the union members whom the A licence does not concern vote yes they can bring in something that those concerned may disagree with just on sheer numbers if the rest of the agreement suits them. surely those not concerned should not have an influence on the outcome of the A licence issues?

What options do potential A licence ames have that disagree with the current A licence offer, seeing now that there interests are so different from the majorety of the union members they are with? I have a feeling just voting no wont cut it. (do we need to form our own little union)?

Ps. what is most disappointing is that anything to do with the A licence in the agreement has not been communicated back to the members (almost feels like they were trying to let it slip past unnoticed). I was not aware until today that the new agreement included it and im sure most others seemed in the same boat.

Seeing as this agreement encompasses multiple AME trades, structures, fibre glass, fitters, painters, utility, trades assistants, I dare say the A licence issue is a non issue for over 50% of the AME's who will vote.

I can't see an outpouring of support from people this has no effect on.

It will affect all of them because the A licence guys will act as strikebreakers against the B licences. The flow on will be lower wage rises for everyone, even Workshop blokes.

Ok so the current solution is to pray and hope the ames whom this has no direct impact on are as fwd thinking as the lames assuming those ames are even aware of this issue.

It would help if you guys went to those areas and made them aware of the problem. A copy of the ALAEA notice would make it clear or you could phone them to explain.

"If this offer is accepted, the future ability of any of us to achieve fair wage outcomes or job security will be taken away."

Someone please explain to me how we have job security now? The other question I have is why are we intending to spend many tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of our members dollars in pursuit of a lost cause? We reap what we sow and I guess in a way this is karma for what we did to the AME Unions at Avalon when Qantas set up operations there.

Somewhere along the line the Unions have forgotten who the common enemy is and has instead become hell bent on destroying each other with a "take no prisoners" attitude. We continue to do this at our own peril.
I'm proud to defend our future but this inter-union sideshow does nothing more than remind me that collectively we all have failed to learn from the past 15 years. :ugh:

No one has Job Security now anyone who says we do is lying .

Steve, I believe they have cat A licence system in operation at VAustralia? Do you represent the Cat A license holders there?

We negotiated the cat A payment at Virgin. It's about twice us much as what Qantas are offering but more importantly, it's a genuine career stepping stone because after holding it for 2 years, they must offer you a B course.

The A licences are also limited to 10% of the workforce.

If the AMEs except this, they will destroy their own careers.

Rumour is that the QF mainline AMWU/AWU/CEPU EBA has been voted up.

Any confirmation?

Did the A licence content remain in their agreement?

Yes. EBA was voted up (A Licence inclusive)

Wow! And here was me thinking the AME union officials would never be able to top their efforts from EBA3 when they successfully brought in the "B" Scale for QF AME's back in 1996.

They really have outdone themselves this time. Whereas the introduction of the"B" scale merely hobbled all the AME's post 1996, this new EBA should serve to hobble all AME's, past, present and future!

Nice work guys. Well Done! I guess it's cigars and dutch rudders all round eh?!

I guess the champagne glasses were clinking at Olivia and Paul's place last night.

Now that the company have the ability to use the "A" license, thanks to the AWU! :yuk: there will be no B1/2 courses or very little type training in the future!! :ugh:

Like many have already done, the words are eject...eject...eject!!!

Worried about getting a course?? Mate, I'd be worried about keeping your job, regardless of whether you may be a B1, B2 or AME. The free fall in standards is set in motion.