Rival unions target Qantas
 

Rival unions target Qantas

• by: EWIN HANNAN
• From: The Australian
• May 01, 2012 12:00AM

TENSIONS between unions representing Qantas workers have erupted into open warfare, after three unions took legal action in Fair Work Australia claiming their members were subject to poaching threats by a rival union.

The dispute has pitted Australian Workers Union national secretary Paul Howes against Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, who rose to prominence during last year's Qantas dispute.
Mr Purvinas is resisting attempts by Qantas to have aircraft maintenance engineers, who are represented by Mr Howes along with two other unions, undertake work that does not need to be signed off by licenced engineers, who are represented by Mr Purvinas.
Qantas wants to implement rules to create an "A" work licence, with holders not required to have the same level of training and specialisation as licensed engineers.
Mr Purvinas wrote to union leaders, including Mr Howes and ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence on Saturday, accusing rival unions of being about to "cut a deal to save their (heavy maintenance) arses". He wrote that A-licence engineers were about to be employed "at our expense".
Mr Purvinas said he would seek a commitment from Mr Howes as well as the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union "that this is our work, that these persons will be covered by the ALAEA when they attain Category A Licences and that any approach by the company to negotiate an instrument to cover their employment be referred to the ALAEA".







He said if that commitment was not made by today, membership of his union would be open to maintenance engineers "to make sure our profession is not destroyed".
In a follow-up email yesterday, Mr Purvinas wrote that if rival unions "want to destroy our industry we will have to protect our members' jobs".
The AWU, the AMWU, and the electrical trades union yesterday applied to Fair Work Australia seeking orders that the ALAEA not have the right to represent members of the three unions.
Glenn Thompson, the AMWU's assistant national secretary, last night accused Mr Purvinas and his union of targeting their members.
"They are encroaching on our traditional representation of unlicenced engineers, and it's a position we are not prepared to sit idly by and accept," he said.
"We are concerned that the ALAEA has taken a position in relation to representation of our members.
"We believe it's in the interests of Qantas workers that we represent the interests of our members.
"We say that we have a new regulatory regime and that our union has a right to cover our existing members.
"We will be having discussions with Qantas on what the regulatory requirements mean for our members and their working lives."
Mr Purvinas attacked the unions over the release of the emails, saying it showed the "union movement is in such disarray that emails can't be sent without them being splashed all over the papers".
Qantas and Mr Howes declined to comment yesterday.


All australian workers have a right to join a union. The union of their choice!

The AWU and AMWU have done nothing to save the jobs of AMEs at Qantas.

They have done such a good job as today's headline shows.

As an AME,the AWU did nothing but lose me money, by collecting my dues and under representing me when the time came, and voting on my behalf against my wishes.The ALAEA is the most democratic of any union representing the engineers at Qantas, both licenced and unlicenced.

The AWU and AMWU are far more concerned about getting the upper echelon preselected to safe Labor seats,than the welfare of their aviation members.

The ALAEA should be representing ALL engineers in aviation, as these other clowns have no real interest except for their inclusion to Qantas Club and seat upgrades.

And when they become "A licence" engineers they should be allowed to join the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association. Just as they would have by getting a normal licence.

The gall of the AWU/AMWU declaring ownership over people. It's the other way around. There is such a thing called freedom of association. This is exactly what is wrong with the old school unionists, the sense of utter entitlement and the lengths they will go to, to prevent their power base being taken away.

All I know is, the ALAEA never introduced A and B scales and the ALAEA never had a platform of negotiating based upon what the metals union got. It's always been the other way around.

I love how they have spun their position. They argue the ALAEA shouldn't represent someone with an 'A' LICENCE.

hear hear. disgraceful.

I have so much to say here but can't. The AMWU and AWU would send it straight to the press and make it a story for tomorrow's paper like they did the emails I sent them yesterday.

It is this behaviour that has f****d the Labor party.

It might be prudent to note that the article originated in the Australian, a media outlet which is focussed on destroying unionism and the Labor Party.

Don't know if it is still the case, but the ALAEA's constitution originally excluded all engineers except LAME's.

Joyce will be loving this.

First employee against employee, now union against union - beautiful. The Fat man, Murdoch and Hawke tried this in '89, looks like they were 23 years too early.

Unions do a huge amount of good in our society which puts the dollar before all else. The rocks in Sydney would be a car park if not for the hard work of the Buildings labourers federation in the 60 s . Australian unions have done a lot of positive things in addressing social inequality.

But unions are run by people, and some people will allow themselves to be corrupted by power. This does not mean unions are corrupt, it just shows human nature at its worst can impact on any organisation.

The CEO s of large corporations will definitely be delighting and rubbing their hands with glee at this.

Can I be so bold As to point out that the Australian newspaper - which is shown above as the link to this story - is owned by Murdoch. That seems quite interesting to me as far as supporting democracy goes. Jealousy can occur as far as people not holding the power wanting to take it away from those with power. Power struggles are often difficult to understand from the outside looking in.

If you know your Union history, you will know that the ALAEA was born out of the AEU , ASE and ETU who represented LAME's until the ALAEA was bornout of the employers . The ALAEA was a bosses Union to break the power of the militant Unions in the 60's. How ironic, that the bosses are now using those Unions they coluded against back then, to bust their love child . Ah the irony of it all :)

+1 ALAEA Fed Sec. :ok:
Maybe you should send them a few false leads...:E
Agreed. Very uncool.
Also agreed. That's the main reason for not spraying them all over the media.

Nazi state
 

Labor has killed the Unions. While Gillard and friends think of their own agenda and are too buy getting involved in dick swinging competitions the rest of the world slips by them and so does the only vestige of protecting workers rights - Unions. What has escalated the decline in the Unions power base are the turncoats like Shorten and co as well as a political party that has lost it's testicles. The Grim Reaper has made his call an Labor is dead. Within 12 months these incompetents will receive their recompense and receive the same treatment that Anna Bligh and her pathetic weasels reaped.

The worse thing is that Ol Slugger only has to sit back, run a few marathons and enjoy the show. No campaign required this election - Labor have killed themselves, Liberals have it in the bag, and back comes Work Choices and probably 3 terms of Liberal power and the end of Unions.
Considering I am a Labor supporter traditionally it doesn't get any worse than the current situation, does it or could it? Oh I forgot, Thomson, Slipper and a red haired retarded speaking Welsh PM with a male hairdresser partner, yeah how did I miss that.

As for the QF Union debate, the only Union to not bend over for the mighty Roo was the one that didn't support 'Scale A and Scale B'. You got it ALAEA.

Now, a word of warning Alan, dont rub your pudgy little hands yet. Look around, it's not just the Unions imploding, so is society, large corporations, governments and continents. So before you jump for joy over Union infighting remember this - If it comes down to a fight to the death be sure that nobody escapes unharmed. Blood (figuratively) will be spilled on a larger scale than seen before, that you can be assured.

Unions, Murder, Thugs and an Heiress
 

In July 1975 heiress publisher and community activist / union collaborator Juanita Neilson was kidnapped and murdered. Property developers were believed to be responsible for her murder yet no one was ever charged. Nielsen had been successful in her campaign with the unions to stop developers in inner Sydney "destroying" inner city areas. Juanita Neilsen realised she might be in danger in the lead up to her murder.

In 1973 Arthur King, a member of Sydney Push, campaigned along with the BLF Union against property developers wanting to demolish his Sydney neighbourhood. He was kidnapped. A V Jennings was involved, and wanted to use strike breakers against the BLF Union.

Developers wanted to turn Sydney's Botanical Gardens into a car park for the Opera house.

During this period of Australian history police were charged with corruption, as were union leaders. Does this mean that all police And union officials are bad? I don't think it does. These are complex issues. The idea of a society without police and unions terrifies me. Cabin Crew moderators on this website in the cabin crew section have locked me out of the thread I started there on Seniority. This does not mean that all PPrune moderators are fascists.

LHLisa, what about when the shoe is on the other foot, are you forgetting the American Jimmy Hoffa?

Guys Qantas has orchestrated this one completely along with their buddies in CASA, the ACTU and a couple of unions. We have expected it though.

About unions. There are so many hard working, genuine and caring union officials battling all across our country to make things better for working Aussies. There is another element who think the organisation they work for is their own personal vehicle for promotion or wages far beyond their qualifications. It's the things this second group do that disappoint so many members who resign and never come back.

I've always said that 99% of the people in unions are not interested in taking on a leadership or representative role which is fine. Of the 1% that do only half of them do it for the right reason. All the elected members of our Executive come out of that mould.

The next Federal Election is going to be a farce.

I have never heard of Jimmy and will look it up. I do understand why a lot of people feel disenchanted by the political pArty that is meant to support the working class. But I do believe they are doing their best.

In a world where the Clive palmers and Gina Rheinharts have almost unlimited budgets to supports their causes and chosen political parties the Labor party is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I believe that Julia Gillard has been subjected to extra scrutiny because of her gender. Male politicians are allowed to try to do each other out of a job no questions asked. But because PM Gillard is female she has been subjected to unreasonably harsh critical for doing what is normal in politics.

Male politicians are not denigrated for their relationship status or choice of jacket or hair style. For gods sake Tony Abbot can wear speedo s on national television and still be treated with respect and dignity. Double standards?

The Labor movement is brave and forward thinking for electing a female leader. It is a shame that the electorate is having such a hard time coping with equality.

Saying that the labor party has lost its testicles is incorrect in my humble opinion.

The labor party are attempting to introduce massive reforms in the form of a mining tax and carbon tax. These tax s will help the little people in the long run , but this is hard to see in a 24 hour news cycle environment.

The Nazi party rose to power after Germany was subjected to unfair policies after world war one. Greek working class people are currently being treated terribly , due to the negligence of their politicians. Nazi state definitely does not apply to Australia. But Our Tibetan and European neighbours feeling like their only choice is self immolation ? Yeah , it's a really bad situation.

A lot of male voters are critical of PM Gillard.

Stating she and her mates are doing a crap job is factually incorrect in my opinion.

The world is in what could be described as a state of turmoil.

Unchecked capitalism - encouraged and bought about in large part by type A personality egomaniacal foolishness- has in part led to the world being in a precarious state. Men, not red heds , largely brought about the GFC. This does not mean I do not like men , they are great to cuddle, nor does it mean I would never vote for one.

But hey. I am just a woman , my opinion is not worth that much is it?

It does concern me that unbiased media reporting on a range of important topics is hard to come be . Whether it be about unions , politicians, and a range of topics it seems money talks when it comes to the passing of information onto us, the unclean masses.

LHLisa:

Your opinion is coloured by the fact that Gillard is female.

Let me tell you Lisa, in this "equal" world, women have as much right to be rotten leaders as men. The worst boss I ever had was a woman - rotten corrupt, liar, manipulator, bully and totally inept and dishonest to boot. She got where she was by being a member of the Margaret Whitlam "Old Girls Club" - which is full of lethally bad managers, and more are on the way.

The problem in its narrowest sense is that Gillard is the best of a rotten mob. The elected officials of that party have never been "on the tools" - they are all university educated former lawyers or union officials. They are exactly the same type of "born to rule" bastards that used to infect the Liberal Party.

To put that another way, genuine Labor representatives wouldn't be seen dead in the Qantas Chairmans lounge, let alone wearing an Italian suit.

To put that yet another way, how many more Thompsons and WIlliamsons infect the Labor party? How many more millionaires mates are there? How many more are there that cosy up to property developers and screw the people who trusted them? How many more leave parliament to start working for billionaires, taking Six figure salaries to screw the workers some more?

Gillard is a "Process Person", not a leader. In her world, if you do things the right way, you automatically get a good result. The trouble is that "process" doesn't work when you are trying to build on sand, and use **** for concrete, no matter how elegant the architects design looks.

Qantas is going to turn to **** if it hasn't already. The business model of Qantas and every other major Australian corporation is to outsource production and delivery of everything to the cheapest providers in the world - wherever they are - currently Asia, and destroy the Australian working class in the process.

My sources predict that "globalisation" is going to fall in a heap in 2013 because the European and AMerican workforces are going to rebel.

My own view is that if the Australian dollar needs to be at 0.75 for Australian manufacturing to be competitive, then close the &*^%ing mines until the dollar gets there and stick Rhinehart, Palmer, Forrest and the rest of the billionaires club in jail if they object. Believe me, those folks have plans for YOU and your kids, and they are not nice.

Back on topic, please! That being rival unions targeting QF.

TID

Qantas have made their mind up already that they don't want/can't afford engineering excellence. What Howes and co. will learn if they are intact about to do a deal over A cat licensing, is that the AME's will not get them, they are to expensive as well. You only need 2 years industry experience and not even a trade certificate basic qualifications. So the guy signing your rts and applying your Mel's if an A cat will know nothing and most probably not even have any basic training, only what qf have shown them parrot fashion in a quick class room session.

The AWU AMWU and ETU will get burned, only by codeifying A cat as a stepping stone and career path to a full B cat licence through industrial instrument will add value and only the ALAEA can do that.

Just an update. There will be an ACTU meeting today to discuss this contentious issue. For Tech and Cabin Crew wondering what this is all about I will explain briefly.

Qantas want to bring in a new LAME licence that will allow the holder to certify for 90% of what we do. They will not have to sit a full Type course to learn about the aircraft (usually 3 months with an exam every week). They will not have to demonstrate 1000 hours of specific work on the plane that we must accrue in our Log books. They will not have to have sat the 25 or so post apprenticeship basic examinations on various aircraft systems. In fact they won't even need to have completed an apprenticeship.

They will have to have been in the industry for 2 years and they will recieve a training course that may be as little as a week. They will then be licenced to certify for your lives.

CASA call them Cat A LAME's. That is Cat A Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers. The AME unions claim that they are not LAMEs. They are just AMEs with a Licence. This is so they can't join our Association. Fully supported by Qantas of course and these unions are now negotiating terms for their engagement and trying to lock the ALAEA out of these discussions.

Would they be performing the same duties as LAMEs, with the same level of responsibility?

Are there any international precedents for this? Obviously places like Chad don't count, although that seems to be Qantas' preferred direction on a lot of things..:}
Good luck, anyway.

Yes they would be performing the same duties as existing LAMEs. A Domestic Line Maintenance crew in Syd and Mel has 30-40 LAMEs who do the transit checks, sign the RTS and undertake overnight maintenance. At the secret meeting between Qantas and the other unions, they were advised by the airline that a crew could be run with 2 B licences and the rest Cat A licences.

The Cat A was first introduced in Eurpoe by EASA about 15 years ago. I think there are about 32 countries that fall under the guidance of EASA. Only about 3 of the National governing bodies there have allowed this watered down licence, the rest have rejected it.

That's telling...:hmm: Doesn't sound like world's best practice. Maybe CASA figure the 'safe skies for all' mantra doesn't actually mention the ground, so it's all sweet :}.
Thanks.

Just AME's with a Licence....???
 

ALAEA Fed Sec:

If this is the depth and sophistication of the AWU/AMWU/CEPU unions argument for justification of their desire to cover Cat A LAME's, then God help the Cat A LAME's. What a joke!

Do future Cat A LAME's really want these boneheads representing them?

Would you want them negotiating your starting wage and conditions of employment?

I suspect not. I expect any future Cat A LAME will join the ALAEA regardless of which union name appears at the top of the relevant industrial instrument.

If Cat A LAME's ever eventuate, they will realise that the ALAEA will be their best bet.

Good luck Steve. This whole case should be a no brainer, but once politics gets involved...

Tick tock

As if the Regulator cares about safety. They are too spineless to chase the big guys, I dare them to do it. The do what everyone else does and bends over and panders to the Rats every whim.......tick tock

and hence the political side of this thread. Sorry mods but it is all part of it.

The unions are there to protect our livelihood ,I know what the alaea is doing for its members,we have to support our executive ,this is our profession ,don't let qantas divide us ,even we have to loose our jobs so be it,our families and friends could be flying in these aircraft and I don't want to see inexperienced certifying engineers signing of for our lives.this is not Pakistan or Russia .let alaea do their job and we should support them.

I always thought people had the right to join any union and multiple unions if they wished these days?

I believed for example, a Qantaslink pilot can choose to join the AFAP, AIPA or even the TWU if he feels the need.

Am I mistaken? If not then how can these unions say the ALAEA can not sign up there members?

When u get into an investigation ,ur best bet will only be alaea as they have the expertise and knowledge.

A few years ago there was an investigation. Not a bogus Qantas Kangaroo Court where the decision is made before you go there. A real one. Manslaughter after a light aircraft crash that was caused by a maintenance issue.

The AME was successully represented by the ALAEA in the trial.

Sort of. All unions have membership criteria, usually occupation based. For example, if you were a plumber you couldn't join a public sector union; although if you were a government employed plumber with something like Q Build you would probably have the choice of both.

It's reasonably common for particular workers to have a choice between several unions, and in civilised workplaces the SOP is for all relevant unions to send reps to visit new employees, each put their case forward and let the employees choose which (if any) union they want to join. Of course the Big Q is not very civilised at the moment. :sad:

It's also common for unions to agree between themselves about coverage of particular occupations. The optimistic view is that it's because one union can better represent that occupation, and the cynic's view is that it's because back in the day both organizations got together and carved up the territory. :suspect: As always, the truth probably hides somewhere in the middle.


We live in a society dominated by products and consumerism. Even religion is now commoditized, as shown by the rise of new style happy clapping churches that market themselves heavily. They're attracting a lot of members, money and publicity, which is affecting the numbers of people joining traditional Christian religions. The traditionalists hate it and say it's superficial and commercial, but guess where the Gen Yers are flocking...

IMO it's the same with unions. Like it or not, unions provide a product. If they spent more time developing an awesome product people wanted then they'd attract members, particularly younger ones. Of course a number of unions are already doing this and their membership numbers reflect that. The ol' heavies may grumble, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, and whether they like it not, wrapping your membership form around a lump of 4x2 went out along with safari suits and XXXX Draught (yep, they're out, fellahs; and they're not coming back :}).

From the outside looking in, the ALAEA provides a good product, and that's why people want to join. It's light on the faceless men, alleged rorts and Heavies and big on genuine union organizers from the trade and representing its members. IMO that's the only way forward for the union movement if it wants to survive. Real people are getting sick of the 'union as political force' thing and just want someone to bat for them at the EBA shakedown.

IMO it would be more sensible to concentrate on the product and avoid public punch ups in the papers. All that does is turn even more people off the union movement completely, because it smacks of ALP politics, back room deals and self interest. These are not attractive products (particularly to anyone under thirty) and illustrate a dinosaur mentality. Remember what happened to the dinosaurs...:ouch:

Gee, back to the good old days of demarcation disputes--where unions jealously held "their ground", ostensibly to maintain work for their members (read, numbers are power)--just one of things that led to a widespread distate for unions in general among the general public, and led to gross inefficiencies which were well up amongst the reasons for governments privatising enterprises that were union strongholds. The very reason behind indivual workplace agreements, with workplace flexibilty, which led to efficiency gains overall.
That said, I would support the ALEA against the likes of Paul Howe's lot.

The intent of the A licence was not to give Ames any certification ability on a similar level to a lame, in fact it is quite restrictive. The A licence is actually used to its full intent and extent by providing existing experienced lames authorisarions at a task level on other aircraft types. For example, a lame exercising the privileges of a type under a company authorisation will already have an A licence but no authority unless the individual has a task level authority for such things as a wheel change or fluid replenishment. It is not a type rating, it merely allows a lame with a full type, who has been trained for a particular task to do that task and certify it on a type they do not have. It doesn't allow for trouble shooting, interpretation of a defect or certification or supervision of others work on that task. This is what the A licence is designed for, the A licence task extension to an ame is quite a different path and a difficult feat. It would hardly be worth the effort for an organisation to design and approve a process that gives any more value than merely using the A licences you already have wih your current lames. You would gain more productivity from each individual, which would drive less overall headcount, rather than still having half unproductive skilled staff and half productive unskilled staff. My take anyway, shoot me down....

I think you might find the ames at Qantas are over qualified and that Qantas management are aiming further down the food chain for Cat A applicants. Could it be they are using it to play the unions off against each other, surely not!!!!

Fight this tooth and nail Steve.
In the UK, before the introduction of the "A" license the industry was struggling to recruit licensed engineers. There was 2 ways to go:
1. Make the Licensed Engineer position more attractive to future generations by investing in the industry and paying a salary reflecting the responsibility that goes with signing off a multi million pound aircraft full of hundreds of people.

or

2. Bring in un-qualified sometimes un-traded workers to the industry pay them way less than licensed guys, give them a couple of years experience on the shop floor (usually stuck in holds or in the cabin) and then allow them to hold a company authorisation which gives them most of the stamping power that a full licensed engineer studied years for. They then have the carrot of a B license position hanging over them in a few years for a salary £20000GBP less than than a properly experienced and traded engineer.
Guess which option the CAA went with!!
Oh and if your British Airways strike a deal with the UK CAA that allow's that company authorisation to be converted to a full EASA Cat A license.
The result? Well in the UK far more A licensed guys than fully licensed engineers. Salaries stagnating or dropping by as much as 25% and morale at an all time low. And they wonder why they still can't recruit "good guys"

In UK the management at BA spoke of a "pyramid model" which instead of having say 5 Licensed blokes a shift in charge of 3 or 4 guys each, they gradually changed it to only 1 Licensed engineer in charge of 2 or 3 A licensed guys who in turn were in charge of 7 or 8 mechs and 3 or 4 contractors.
It resulted in items being stamped blindly because the licensed guy at the top did not have anywhere near the time needed to oversee this amount of work. Plus the fact there was so much paperwork to deal with his arse was permanently on a chair stuck in the office.
I saw guys leaving the industry because they could not keep up due to the pressure and stress levels being just too high.
So much for Human Factors!

Steve,

I think you already know my feelings about this ridiculous A Licence, one of the worst things EVER to happen in the Industry, and I am glad I am retired now and will not have to see it.

This Union thing is almost as ridiculous, the Craft Unions are saying that these AMEs are just going to be AMEs with a Licence, okay, well using that logic (as you know) I was an Apprentice AME for 5 years, then an AME just for a few months until I was granted my first Licence ( a real one NOT an A Licence off the weetbix box) which I then held for more than 40 years.

So I guess you could say I was an AME that held a Licence (real one) for some 40 years, I feel guilty now for being in the ALAEA all those decades. ;)

Spot on Airsupport.

I'm an AME with a (L)icence, that's why they call me a LAME.

I know who my money goes to in case sh!t happens

How did it go in the ACTU meeting FedSec?
No doubt Shorten and Cameron will be applying pressure.