As I understand it, the Cat A can do a wheel and brake change amongst other things. Most larger aircraft would require two people to this. If an apprentice or another AME was assigned to help would the Cat A not be supervising? This then raises the question as to how the second person signs the paperwork as he/she was involved in the job but the Cat A cannot certify for such actions.

Refuelling
 

QF94

(1) a refueller cannot begin fuelling without an LAMEs permission to start which involves said engineers confirming the serviceability of the fuelling system.
Therefore a LAME must supervise refuelling also he signs off on a preflight which includes refuelling.

(2) supervision can be defined as overseeing the aurcraft operations, direct supervision is .
standing with the refueller.

(3) refuelling was always carried by the LAME it was rationalised to allow one man transit

Okay, from what is posted here the Old Guy is getting confused again. :confused:

IF what has been posted here IS true, it seems to me that this new CASA Issued A Licence is in place of the old CASA issued MA (Maintenance Authority) which enabled you to sign for certain things you were NOT actually Licenced on.

Over the decades I had a few of those, one for example for FDRs and even one for an Engine Type, however I had a FULL Licence on those Aircraft, and I had to do the work could NOT just certify for someone else.

Oh Me Oh My,

Having been a LAME that used to physically carry out the refuelling at the aircraft fuel panel, I'm very aware that was our job and still sign off on it.

One man transits, at this stage ( and has been for some time) will be for domestics. That's still a sticking point on the international side of things.

You make an observation about two types of observation. Yes there is direct and yes there is supervision of the overall operation. You can have direct supervision and prevent something happening, or supervise something from a distance and see it go pear shaped. Either way you have supervised the operation.

The term supervision was/has been used very loosely on this thread.

Yes it would seem there is - the AWU and AMWU..... :)

And this seems to be one of the key issues in dispute and may well require some form of legal ruling/precedent to resolve it once and for all.

Can it be successfully argued that completion of a task is also the supervision of that very same task?

"The CASR Dictionary contains the following meaning of supervising:

A person (the supervisor) is supervising the carrying out of maintenance done by another person if the supervisor:

• is physically present at the place that the maintenance is being carried out; and
• is observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary to enable the supervisor to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is being carried out properly; and
• is available to give advice to, and answer questions about the maintenance from, the person carrying it out. "

I believe I mentioned something along these lines earlier, but not in the same words. The above definition was taken from the CASA website in the FAQ section for Part 66 Civil Aviation Safety Authority - CASR Part 66 questions & answers

Getting back to the point about fuelling, the refueller signs no paperwork for the task of refuelling an aeroplane, other than he/she has supplied the fuel as required. The engineer signs the receipt saying all is well together with the check sheets for the transit.

When the task is signed off, the LAME in charge is verifying that all the work has been carried out. The LAME hasn't necessarily supervised the task or even been at the aeroplane. The LAME signing off on each individual task takes the responsibility for ensuring each task is completed IAW the applicable AMM's.

ACT Crusader:

You've hit the nail the head ACT Crusader. The AWU/AMWU/CEPU is exactly and appropriately where unlicensed aircraft engineers (aka AMEs) are covered.

In my very humble opinion, the key fact of the issue is that the holder of a Category A Licence is a Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (LAME) and therefore, the appropriate union to cover them is the ALAEA.

I believe this fact will, in the end, be the key determinant in the resolution of this case. I see any other arguments as diversionary to this basic fact.

A lame signing for a fuel uplift is a Qantas process, not a regulatory requirement. Wake up.

Lames dont sign for a fuel uplift, the pilots do.

Ames or Lames,the bloke down the street or pilots can carry out the discrepancy calculations, the pilot in command or designate has to accept it. Just because sometimes there is no effective means of communications to the refueler it falls to the person doing the transit check of the aircraft to pass it on. Sometimes the lame needs to inform the refueler

There is nothing stopping qantas replacing the term 'LAME' in the policy and procedures to 'Appropriately Trained Person' like they have done with the towing, to any procedure, so at the end of the day unless it's written in law, it's their train set.

But this isn't the argument, who does what, it's an introduction by CASA of a restricted licence and qantas doing deals with the AWU,AMWU and ETU to devise a way to cover this new employee.

Seems cut and dry to a common sense point of view. Seeing as they will be issued with a licence from CASA what case do the unlicenced engineers have. If the privilege were extended by virtue of having an AME trade certificate then different story.

Okay, Steve (the FedSec) has taken the time to explain it all to me, for which I thank him. :ok:

It is obvious when you know how it works that the CASA issued A Licence IS a genuine Licence and anyone that holds it should be in the ALAEA if they want to. :ok:

Correct me if things have changed since I was on the tarmac. I know that as a LAME I was required to sign a transit check sheet certifying that the fuel was uplifted IAW the aircraft fuelling manual and Qantas procedures. This was for 744, 767 and A330. Some of the actual tasks were performed by others but I took responsibility by signing the check sheet.

@Fedsec

This is still the case. The flight crew sign for accepting the fuel on the fuel distribution sheet of which they keep the original, and we sign on our check sheets that we have done the fuelling IAW the Fuelling manual, QF procedures etc.

A380 can be included in that list also

While we're talking about the AWU, this from their website today.

--------------------------------------
Skilled defence jobs must be retained

9 May 2012

The Federal Government's decision to retire the RAAF's fleet of C-130H Hercules aircraft early, as part of the Budget defence cuts, has put the long-term future of 250 workers at the RAAF Richmond base at risk.

AWU National Secretary Paul Howes today said the union was concerned for the working future of the highly-trained employees and contractors of Qantas Defence Services who maintain the C-130H Hercules aircraft.

"The union has spoken to the Federal Government and Qantas today to find out exactly what the Government's budget announcement means for the aircraft maintenance workforce at Richmond.

"We have been assured that no immediate jobs will be lost as a result of the announcement.

"We will now work closely with the Department of Defence and Qantas Defence Services to ensure minimum disruption to workers at the Richmond base as the aircraft are phased out of operation."

Mr Howes said Australia's skilled workforce was essential to our national defence capabilities.

"The Department of Defence must find alternative aircraft maintenance work for the Richmond base so that Australia does not lose access to the highly-trained workforce that has been developed at Richmond over many years."

"The skilled workers at RAAF Base Richmond need to have regular work, otherwise they will be lost to other industries.

"The AWU will not stand by and see the jobs sacrificed, and these capabilities lost."
---------------------------------------

Australia, epidemic loss for our aviation skills base
 

Its becoming an epidemic loss for our skills base in Australian aviation....




.

ALAEA Fed. Sec., I have something to share with you.

I know its off topic, but do you have any idea of the damage Craig Thompson and his mate Williamson have done to the Labor movement?

People everywhere are asking these questions:

How many more turds are there who formerly or currently manage unions?

How many former union turds have made it into State and Federal Parliament?

Just how corrupt is the Labor Party, both at State and Federal level?

Who knew, and when did they know it?

Why are ALL Labor politicians former union apparatchicks or lawyers who have never worked on the tools even for a day?

Do you understand that the Labor party is going to be wiped out at the next Federal Election?

Do you understand that Abbot is then going to take a blunt and rusty knife to the management of unions and permanently castrate them?

Do you understand that the Labor party is going to be unelectable until it gets rid of the corrupt branch stacking ethnically driven, tribal behaviour it is currently displaying, especially in the NSW cesspool?

Do you understand that all your good work on behalf of LAME's is now totally and comprehensively in vain? Qantas is going to get exactly what it wants.

I'd welcome your comments.

sunny , despite some of the loopier policies the greens are the only party with any ticker and consistency of policy. if it means voting for them to protect my living / job and pay rates I will do it. they wont win many in the lower house but senate has the last say. So they cant create much legislation but can vet and modify the more draconian stuff Abbott will have free reign to do soon. I would love to see an aviation based senate ticket run next time. Run on protection of the local industry, skilled jobs, sewing the balls back onto CASA, getting rid of the ticket clippers making big bucks while the industry suffers, upgrading infrastructure and nav aids etc.

Firstly I ask our good moderators for some leniency here. This will move a little political but the thread is a debate about the unions that represent aviation workers and how they are controlled and this does reach to the party system and will affect us all.

They have broken it to a point that it will take years to rebuild.

I know at least one.

Who knows. Maybe about the same amount of former corporate turds that infect the Liberal party. They come out of the same mould.

I think not corrupt but it seems that unethical practices have become accepted, its not just Labor though it is society in general. Take a look at News Limited and the phone tapping scandal.

The problems with the HSU were known some time ago by lots of people but the exact details were unknown. Really, they still are. Who knows who recieved the services of prostitutes on the credit card, we can all suspect but the bloke is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. That is a fundemental right in our society.

I think you will find that Doug Cameron worked for many years so this isn't entirely correct.

Sure do. It appears that there are only about 72 people who can't see it coming.

Yep. It will be carnage.

Yep and it will be a long time. I occassionally sit with these young Labor upstarts and they have no comprehension of what the ordinary person thinks. It is as if there is a fantasy world that has been created for them where they have been given a birthright to absolute power. It disgusts me.


It won't all be for nothing. If we can save one Australian job that would have otherwise been lost if there were no barriers, we are better off. The work our union has done in the last 6 years has saved jobs, extended careers, provided better remuneration and rosters. The future will be tough battling the airline, the Monk and the destruction to the Labor movement caused by the selfish few.

I guess my job would be boring if it had no challenges. At least you know I will be working for my pay cheque.

As usual, well put FedSec. Appreciate your efforts. Steve and Goliath comes to mind.

Well said Steve!!!!:ok:

Sunfish - Senator Sterle was a truckie before becoming a TWU official, and there are a few others that worked up the ranks so to speak.

HSU has been dire for years. Kathy Jackson's ex has a lot to answer in my view....

In relation to your last question and as Fed Sec noted, in my view any good work by unions for the interest of members and industry is still 'good work' regardless of what is happening around them. Sure every time Dave Oliver in his new role as ACTu Sec is going to have to answer questions about this stuff and defend the cause, but that won't diminish some of the other good work that unions do.

Greater transparency in business, including union business can inly be a good thing.

In an ideal world. In the unideal real world a lot of people are seeing the whole movement as one big rort, which is untrue. :sad:

Remember what happened to Catholic priests? Mention the two words and all most people say is 'child molester.' That's unfair, because most priests aren't child molesters, but that's what people think. Ask my cousin, he is a priest who no longer wears a dog collar in public because he's sick of the verbal abuse. And no, before anyone asks; he's not a child molester. He was a missionary, a tireless worker for the needy here and in many foreign countries, a great administrator and a damned good bloke, but all he hears in public if he's wearing 'uniform' are the words 'kid :mad:er.'

Mud sticks, and the mud Thomson and Co have dredged up for their own petty, puny and despicable goals has stuck to everyone in the union movement. :ugh:

Every honest person who wears the Eureka flag and works tirelessly for their members is copping abuse thanks to these self serving pricks. Try getting people to part with their hard earned cash for a membership when all they see on the news is Thomson's credit receipts. Oh, that's right, he's innocent until proven guilty. Maybe his dog borrowed his credit card, forged his signature and had a big night on the town :mad:. No-one's buying it.

Whether through ignorance or inaction the ACTU has allowed this to happen, and they deserve a group pineappling for that. It happened on their watch.
Agreed. First to the wall, the little toerags. They saw a buck in the labour rights 'business' and snouted their way to the trough. Not one of the little bastards has ever worked a year of their lives. Not one of them has served customers, dug holes, driven vans or fixed stuff for a living, apart from the odd student job between lectures. There's nothing wrong with going to uni (I've done it, paid for it and was grateful for the opportunity) but it's not being a worker. It's not the same as doing a job effectively for twenty years and now hoping like hell you don't get punted because you're the wrong side of fifty, only got to junior because the family needed you to earn, and have trouble getting the hang of all this new computer stuff. :(

Then they have the nerve to claim they're 'for the workers.' Grow the :mad: up, the workers aren't stupid and don't buy a word of it.

The HSU has handed a whopping big advantage to the Liberal Party and the anti union brigade, and all for drinks and prostitutes. What a great achievement. What a great step forward for worker rights. What a bunch of :mad:heads.

Yes, as usual, very well said Steve. :ok:

One thing I am curious about now, regardless of your and any other individuals personal political leanings I always understood the ALAEA was NOT aligned with any Political Party, is that true? :confused:

We have a 20 person Executive and not one of us is a member of any political party. We don't donate to them and we refuse to be pushed around by them.

Come election day I will man a polling booth handing out how to vote leaflets for the people we think will serve LAMEs best in the upcoming period. Looks like next election day I will be heading to South Australia to help Nick.

Thank you. :ok:

I was sure it was like that back in the Olde Days, glad it still is. :ok:

Also agree about Nick, about the ONLY Politician I have any time for. :ok:

....and to cap it all, I just received the latest gossip from Canberra, that a certain Ministers wife and kids have just moved out of the family house after he got his PA pregnant. They moved in with her Mum.

Not that there isn't a womaniser among the Liberal leadership.

Is it something in the water in Canberra?

And her Mum happens to be the G-G..............

FWA???
 

Did anyone catch Kelty's speech last night. A plain straight talker is Kelty but still has the vision.

I'm guessing the meeting a couple of weeks ago with the ACTU didn't resolve anything because the Fair Work Australia website is saying there is a hearing today?

Today was a directions hearing. Some timelines were set by the Commissioner. Qantas of course being represented by Freehills had to stick their nose in and will be siding with the non aviation specific unions. They would prefer to deal with people who know nothing about our industry.

I guess Qantas Management are happier dealing with people similar to themselves, that is ones that obviously know very little about Aviation. ;) :ok:

@airsupport

Why would QF Management deal with anyone else? One pack of know nothings dealing with another pack of know nothings. Anyone who thinks differently to them are cast aside as "not understanding" the importance of QANTAS's survival as they do.

All qantas ame's out there should ask themselves two basic questions, why are management trying soooo hard to have this dealt with through the craft unions? And based on that, who is going to get a better deal? Think about it and lobby your local reps.

I know we were talking politics earlier in this thread, just had a laugh at Senator Doug Cameron saying about Enterprise Migration Agreements that "you could drive a 737 Airbus through the policy".

Once upon a time he was a union secretary responsible for workers in the industry......

A few others come to mind. Greg Combet, Bob Hawke, etc etc. The union movement is usually a stepping stone into Canberra.

AFR Review
 

? Where are all the unions / associations they all seem to have disappeared has anyone at Tulla or Avalon even seen them in the past weeks seems like they have just given up representing there members .