There are 1 or 2 differences between the CAO48 exemption and Jetstar's "cut and paste" copy of it in OM1. The definition of flight deck duty might be one of them. The pilots have raised it, the company insists flight deck duty=scheduled flight time, and CASA has been aware of it for some time. Trouble is, the CASA guy that signed the CAO48 exemption is now.....drum roll please....Jetstar's head of Safety.

Honestly, who wants to work for J* anyway? I withdrew my application the second I heard about part time contracts. There are better airlines out there!!

Welcome to JQ A330 2 crew standouts (all local departure/arrival times)...

BKK/MEL 2215/1020 9hrs 5min.
NRT/OOL 2025/0625 9hrs.
KIX/OOL 2050/0655 9hrs 5min.
HKT/SYD 2020/1025 9hrs 5min.

If you get to Perth late & your turn around time plus your flight, taxi in & shutdown time back to Sydney is projected to exceed 9.5 hours.

Get off the aircraft & go to a company provided hotel for a rest.

Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick

Its a bit like Perth - Jakarta - Perth back of the clock (as an example only)

If one Australian Airline determines that a particular pairing is fatiguing & no longer schedules crew to fly that pairing.

They should then advise CASA of such evidence & facts behind the reasoning.

If it's something like a serious incident, increases in error rates, or large proportion of crew reporting fatigued. But it must be evidence based.

CASA should then make a determination as to whether it should be an industry standard or not.

If you believe BB in the senate inquiry, because another airline flies a different aircraft type, the fatigue levels are different.

For a bit of light reading, for those that are interested, have a look at "The impacts of Australian Transcontinental 'Back of the Clock' operations on sleep and performance in Commercial Aviation Flight Crew"
ATSB publication number- 50171, published March 2007.



Clark y.

CCrew have to see a company aviation dr if they use more than 3 fatigue days a year. If cc take more than 1 day of fatigue leave - eg 2 consecutive days- they have to see a company dr. It's a bit of a farce. Crew ****e themselves whenever they are told they need to see a company chosen aviation dr. A lot of Cc have had really bad experiences after seeing them.

Sony Hammond thank you for the link to that research article. Thank f$&k someone cares about this issue.

Its all been done before, no need to re-invent the wheel:
House of Representatives Committees: Beyond the Midnight Oil: Managing Fatigue in Transport final report.

In addition there are a myriad of submissions that should provide the determined with a goldmine of information and data.

All this carry on goes with the shyte sandwich that is JQ. You know what you are getting into when you sell your souls to the devil. Stop whining about it.
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the rest. In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.

As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!:ugh:

All this carry on goes with the shyte sandwich that is JQ. You know what you are getting into when you sell your souls to the devil. Stop whining about it.
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the "rest". In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.

As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!:ugh:

G'day mate! How's things out west?

Not sure when I got my head down as early as 2130 on an overnight but yes, up at 0500 the next morning, as you'd well remember!

There have been changes: We can put in fatigue reports now! :D

Now, if only the company will do something about them...:ouch:

DIVOSH!

Yeah, we did that for eons, Norma. (I don't think it was right, and whenever I felt fatigued, removed myself from duty). But the thing is that regardless of the employer and agreements under which these guys work - fatigue is a serious issue affecting flight safety, which nobody seems to wish to address.

Just because they work for xyz doesn't mean they deserve to be rostered fatigued. This is an industry-wide problem.... But you know that ;)

This is the original link (emphasis formatting is mine). Posted the text below in case the link stops working. Long rail shifts too risky, says union


Maybe some duty time lessons can be learnt from another union.

The people who say shut up and put up with it, it's just the industry?

Seriously! If a member of your family is on an aircraft when there is an incident related to fatigue it may lead you to alter your view point. I sincerely hope that never occurs, but do people need to be directly impacted by something to have empathy and a desire to do things better ? I thought that was what separated us from animals. But no, most animal species do exhibit empathy on various levels

This incident has very little to do with fatigue and a lot to do with command of the flight, situational awareness and basic professionalism none of which was being exhibited by the PIC.

Hear, hear! :D

Another off topic post:ugh:

Perhaps a valid argument if you are talking about pay or conditions generally, but when you are talking about the safety aspects of fatigue, this argument has no place. As a professional, you have an obligation to speak out about safety related issues, regardless of airline. I would argue that if you have identified a safety issue and do not stand up and say something about it, you do more damage to the profession than accepting substandard terms and conditions.

Headmaster,

using your logic then, I suppose there is no place for carriers like JQ , as these types of issues are the domain of that type of outfit.

RMCDONAL is nothing but a consummate professional btw.:ok:

Ill bet my left one that Normasars and rmcdonal have just transferred to Jet Star under the MOU. And have winged from day one about there conditions.

OMFG!!!
 

Eastmoore

ROFLMAO! :}:}:}


That is the funniest thing I've read here for a long time!

I know both of these guys and you couldn't be more wrong.

DIVOSH!

Eastmoore
Lucky you only bet the left one!

Not quite sure what you think my logic is.

My comment was directed at the argument that rmcdonal was clarifying. I was trying to distinguish between the argument that 'you knew what you were getting in to - so don't whinge', with my point that fatigue is a safety issue that has an impact on the travelling public.

A 'profession' is generally a vocation the consists of a set of skills and/or knowledge that is combined with a service to the public. A fatigued crew is a danger to the passengers, crew and anybody else impacted by the burning wreckage. Pay and other conditions are a related, but separate argument.

I too have issues with the lowering of standards and conditions in the industry, in part caused by pilots undercutting each other. I have no problem with those same pilots raising concerns that are flight-safety related, in fact I see it as a requirement of being a professional.

We all have a responsibility to ourselves, our employer , each other and our familis and the travelling public, to speak up about any safety threats/ hazards in our work place. Fatigue is a safety hazard.

Legally we are required to speak up about it.

Criticising colleagues within the industry who needed to accept lessened weakened conditions so they could pay their mortgage seems a little mean spirited.

LHLisa, I'm not sure I understand your post.

You say, quite rightly, that we have an obligation to speak up if safety is compromised, and fatigue certainly fits into this category.

Yet in your next sentence, you suggest that it is improper to critisize those who would disregard your first comment, simply so that they can pay their mortgages.

Your two comments there seem a little incongrouous, but inadvertantly, I think you have nailed the major issue here.

That is, these guys have signed on "to pay their mortgage"; but the question is: "at what cost is their mortgage"?

I understand that everyone needs to feed their kids, but I find it unacceptable that they might "pay their mortgage" and risk their passengers and other crew by doing so.

I also find it unacceptable to be told that it is "mean spirited" to critisize those who would pay their mortgages without due regard to safety.

No mortgage is worth this compromise. I would find it "mean spirited" to tell a next of kin that their loved one has died because no-one spoke up, when we know full well there is a big issue here.

We need to speak up. Jetstar pilots need to grow a set of cojones and stand up to Buchanan, Joyce and Clifford.

Please forgive me LHLisa if I've misunderstood your post, but I think the point that I make is valid.

Bollocks.

CASA wrote the CAO48 exemption. WTF have those 3 got to do with it?

If CASA wrote it in a vacuum, then nothing...

If, on the other hand, there is industry input (pressure), then the statement about standing up to the company applying that pressure is valid.

If you don't think that they are a massive part of the problem warren, then I suspect that you don't understand the problem.

I think I understand quite well.

I see. And can you let us know what exactly you have done at your outfit to address that issue. (posting on pprune doesn't count!)

As for the personal attacks - typical tactic. If you dont agree with an opinion attack the character. You dont know me. You never will. I know its hard for you to imagine that there could be a different opinion on things and to fathom that one could be in the same community and think this way. Doesn't bother me one bit. This is not even a debate at this point of time. Yawn.

Don't tell me...all this chest beating, "I can stay awake longer than you", Senator X's..." Toughen up Princesses" and other insider e-mails at Senate estimates, inquiries etc...etc may have had an affect....http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...nprm1202os.pdf :D Or is it a strategic ploy by the regulator just prior to the next estimates?? :ugh: "This will put that pesky Senator X back in his box"!:E

Which 'community' might that be?

I know it's not the community I live in, because you live in India. And it's not the community of professional airline pilots, because you have a PPL and 240 hrs. Well, it's definitely not the community of people trying to make aviation safer.

Hairdresser - you still can't even get over the grounding of the airline. Once you're able to deal with reality I'll engage in a debate with you. Yawn.

Don't engage with Shon guys.

He's a wannabe that will neverbe.

The closest he will ever get to the airline industry is where he is now. Sitting in the bedroom of his parents house tapping away on his computer. Getting his rocks off by making contentious statements about things he knows absolutely nothing about.

The best thing we can do for the spoilt little Gen Y brat that clearly he, is to take his toys away and don't even give him a reply.

For me this pitiful little insignificant no longer exists.

Folks, it's eminently simple.

User CP -> Under settings and options, Edit ignore list -> Add shon7 in the respective box. Voila!

Done. Shon, you "NewPiper" and "aircraft" talk amongst yourselves.

How easy was that.

Thanks Keg!

Bye forever Shon.

:D

Shon7,

I don't normally engage trolls in public, however you are this month's "special case". I banned you for your objectionable behaviour (in this, and other threads) for a period, but you don't seem to have picked up the ball during your time in the naughty corner.

With your "level" of experience (sic), I have serious doubts that you have ever worked in an organisation using FMRS. Let alone understand what it's about. That leaves you ill-qualified to write about the matter.

Most of your posts seem to be deliberately aimed at incensing people that DO work within an FMRS organisation (once again demonstrating your lack of understanding of the concept). Always taking the opposing view without any facts to back you up, nonetheless. Opposing views against those people that actually have the experience and professional intestinal fortitude to report on shortcomings within their respective companies.

I considered banning you once again - permanently, this time. However, you have one last chance to prove yourself as a man (or woman) of substance, and back yourself up with fact, not bile and childish remarks.

You will be judged by your peers on this occasion.

Over to you :8

And the audience. Please be gentle, people :}

TID, your sensitive mod.

It occurs to me that Shon7, who seems to disagree with generally everyone on this forum, should use Keg's technique, and "ignore" all other users. That way he won't have any more problems....

Sorry, was that insensitive, Tidbinbilla?