No Virgin cadets will be going into the RH seat of the 737,330 or Ejet. Cadets will go CFO on the 777 or RH of the ATR for 2 - 3 years. Cadet numbers per year will only be small ie 10 - 20.

I gotta take my hat of to you on this one. Anyone who genuinely argues that the Australian RPT environment is more challenging than the European one deserves the Gold Logie for delusion.

Even if you accept the argument that Low Vis ops are not particularly demanding, combine that with Cold Weather Ops (serious cold weather that is) where the rain is just a bit below freezing and you are trying to make a slot time and you are running out of holdover time in an environment where there are more aircraft parked at the terminal than are airborne in all of Australia, all trying to meet their slot times, along with mountains that require 5 figures to describe their height, approaches that go down valleys you would not have imagine even if you had flown in New Guinea, god knows how many languages, ATC talking to pilots in their mother tongue, the list goes on and on.

But hey, we have it challenging here. We have to do approaches into non-controlled airports with anywhere up to 2 or 3 light aircraft in the area, and sometimes it's raining. I can't imagine how those European Captains would cope with such a demanding environment with only a 250 hour cadet with them. Much easier to fly into Salzburg in winter i would think.

The only reason there is a risk here is because we don't have the training system to support low hour Cadets. If this scheme gets any legs, the end product will have had Multi Crew Training and be a far better product (for an airline) than someone who has spent 5 years flying single pilot into Numbulwar.

We need to embrace the future, because the future is low time pilots with Multi Crew Training flying RPT jets. Get on the train or get left behind.

The 'product' hasn't changed that much in the last 20 years. Being a graduate of that 'product' I can tell you from first hand experience that it is NOT enough to prepare you for the RHS of a RPT jet in Australian airspace under the normal airline training regimes. The 'multi crew' stuff in an artificial environment of a Level 4 (D, whatever) sim isn't going to adequately prepare people for the vagaries of the job.

Were the airline training regimes to change significantly from what they are now THEN they may be acceptable but you're talking about an active on the job training and active mentoring/ feedback system. Something well beyond what Qantas currently has and what my friends with DJ and J* say they have.

As for comparisons with Europe, they may be different but each environment carriers different risks. Arguments about which is 'harder' are ignorant as to the inherent risks in both environment. Just because European operators cope with inexperienced people in the RHS of airliners, doesn't mean it's the right thing for Australian conditions. We are different and require different emphasis in our training. Those that claim Europe as being 'harder' than Australia and therefore that 200 hour pilots in the RHS are acceptable in Australia are demonstrating their ignorance of those differences.

Keg
 

Mostly good points and a reasonable response.

I never advocated that Europe is harder. My point is that in no way is it possible to argue that Australia is more difficult, and 250 hr cadets are being successfully managed in Europe.

Don't worry, Qantas is not on its own. Virgin are having difficulty managing experienced pilots from the back seat of a 777 to a front seat of a 737. This is not a reflection on the pilots, but more a reflection on the airline and its culture.

Our system has been built on the back of the GA principle. Our airlines do very little training, mostly checking. If the airlines genuinely think they can manage Cadets into their systems, then they need to change from big C to big T.

I still maintain that the end product of a good Cadet scheme will be superior to a GA pilot as far as compatibility with an airline. What is in question is the airlines ability to take those kids and develop them into airline pilots. In the current airline environment GA pilots have the upper hand in that area because they have had years of experience learning how to survive in the dog eat dog environment of Australian Aviation. In that regard Cadets will be lambs to the slaughter unless the airline airline implements Cadet specific development programs.

Virgin,

Considering the new CP was also the Head of Training at United, a company that has an infinitely more "User Friendly" training culture, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the emphasis on checking rather than training, may very well change.

Developments
 

The end of April is rapidly approaching.. Has anyone heard any further developments? Expected announcement dates etc?

I've been in VA for 5 years. My experience has been plenty of T and just the required C. Overall, has always been a good experience. Maybe the other base is different........

Any news of opportunities for the advanced entry as opposed to ab-initio? Or are we dreaming?

Ryan

Your dreaming! it will be ab-initio only.

From what I understand, there are a great deal of non Tech crew Virgin employees who are very interested in the Cadetship. It stands to reason that the company would give preference to those who are a known quantity.

j3

2 bobs worth
 

I have held back and enjoyed watching the debate for quite some time :-
"can a cadet pilot from a production line flying school be a help or a hindrance when released to the line as an FO?"

Having just retired after flying with just such low time pilots for the past 12 years please allow me to comment.
Flying has many challenges - and we all discover new ones every day.
My last job was flying 4 sectors a day/night RPT in a 180 pax jet in the middle east with normally 12 hour - 14 hour duty periods, into 26 local and 15 regional airports with brand new national FO's.
Fourteen of those airports were uncontrolled OCTA.
Civilian traffic was light but there were always military transports and helos to make things interesting.
The cadets, who mostly paid for their own pilot training up to FAA CPL in the US were from a varied background - with different levels of enthusiasm for the profession of pilot and technical backgrounds.English was their second, third or fourth language.

On a good day most of these new guys did an adequate job, and most were eager to expand their knowledge base. But, as would be expected, when something unusual happened - all bets were off !! It often became single pilot IFR for a few moments while things settled down.
It was a steep learning curve for them but most adapted well.
And no, we didn't have snow/sleet - but we did have severe dust storms and runways contaminated by blowing sand !! GPS approaches were available at some of the more remote stations and were a great help.

Generally after a few months and several hundred hours these new cadets became fully fledged FOs; after 1000 hours they moved up to 747, MD11 or 777.

It was not ideal to have such low time co-pilots but just as other countries have learnt to deal with this new career path, so I fear must Australian aviation adapt. And at least the Multi Crew Licence will give the new cadets here a better understanding of what is required of them on the line

happy landings !!

From what i hear RT is going to use it to further his own agenda!

Perhaps the delay in any announcement is due to the new Chief having a close look at the plan before giving it the go ahead.

I guess it's looking less and less likely that they will have the cadets selected before the end of the financial year! Can anyone confirm that FTA won the contract for training provider?

Any more news? Might be a bit late if they were wanting to have the Cadetship up and running before the end of the financial year.

Last update to the troops a few weeks back said they are still in the process of selecting the training provider from the final 3 bids. Don't expect a start until late this year or early next.

Cadets will now only start on the ATR rather than the 777. Required number of cadets is less than first thought ie less than 10 per year.

I don't think is a big priority, hence the delay.

Hi guys,

Have had this lying around for about a month. Have been researching extensively into careers. Was published May 23rd this year.

"Company representative, Ian McCallum, attended the meeting on the second day to provide an update on the Virgin Australia Cadet program. The company is still in the process of selecting its preferred training provider, and is hopeful of making an announcement in the next couple of months.
The first intake of cadets for the ab initio program has been wound back from the earlier projections of 12 to 8 cadets, and the Company is now forecasting an average of 8 cadets each year (originally 25). The company was not in a position to commit to a commencement date other than it had a self-imposed deadline of 31 December 2012.
While the company still maintains there will no upfront costs for cadets, there has been some shift in the employment conditions for cadets since our last briefing in February. Cadets will be employed by Virgin Australia on individual contracts from the start of their cadetship, and will be paid a training salary of just less than $50,000. At the successful completion of the 18 month program, the cadets will be guaranteed employment on the ATR at Skywest on a secondment arrangement from Virgin Australia, but on Skywest terms and conditions, except that they will be paid 15% less than a Skywest First Officer ATR salary for a period of time. Previously the Company had expressed a clear view that once a cadet is in the seat of a Virgin/Skywest aircraft, there should be no differential in pay to other intake pilots. Upon completion of the minimum hours requirement (yet to be determined) at Skywest cadet pilots will then be offered a position in Virgin Australia’s domestic operation.
Whilst we see advantages in a cadet program there are a number of outstanding ‘industrial’ issues to work through in its current form. We will raise our concerns with the company."

Comes directly from the Virgin Australia Negotiating Team EBA Update 19.

JayG_Bull could you provide me a link to where you got this information from.

Does anyone know when they will get this Cadetship up and running?

Could someone pm me a link for the Skywest ATR72 eba? (Im struggling to find it).

Formally announced
 

From Plane Talking,

Virgin cadets to fill (it hopes) a pilot shortage
by Ben Sandilands
Virgin Australia and ally Skywest today formally announced one way they intend to address the impending global shortage of suitably skilled airline pilots by making Flight Training Adelaide their preferred supplier to their joint cadetship scheme.


Virgin cadets to fill (it hopes) a pilot shortage extract

As expected I am reliably informed that the Virgin Cadetship will be facilitated by Flight Training Adelaide.

No further details as yet.

More to Follow

The Kelpie


Oops Ben beat me to it!!

Do you suppose that if DJ will fund all of a cadets training (Inc accommodation, meals etc) that all normal direct entry recruits will have their endorsements paid for too?

Not even qantas paid for a cadets training?

It seems a bit unfair to the guys who have done.... (let's say, "the hard road").... Having to pay for training, move away, and do the GA road... Then to get a job with DJ and foot 10's of thousands of George washingtons.

Im not bagging cadet schemes- they have their place. But there's an unfair gap there....

So if you are riddled with debt and given a poorer salary the cadet scheme is no good. If it pays for the majority of the costs, it's no good.

Personally I think this is a great move. They are only taking 8 a year and the first recruits won't be joining Virgin 'mainline' for at least 4 years so this isn't a flyby night thing like Jetstars has been seen to be.

If we are going to have cadet schemes this seems to be the way to do it!! :ok:

Since he already told you, google is your friend.
Virgin Pilot Federation EBA 2011

Life is not fair - the sooner you realize that the easier your life will be.

Life is not fair - get over it.

Got it the first time... Numbnuts

Wrongwayaround

Qantas used to pick up the whole tab, paid their guys under training and subsidised their secondment in GA.

TAA also picked up the tab and paid their cadets.

I don't think either of them provided accomodation.

Lamentably, the mongrel beancounting a'holes running companies at the moment are hell bent on exploiting those mugs who are prepared to pay for the privelege.

Perhaps Mr Borghetti is a bit more astute and realises the benefits in choosing from the whole field, rather than the select, under-motivated, few that can tap daddy's resources.

Maui

The announcement has been made regarding the Virgin Cadetship. Flight Training Adelaide has been named as the training provider, with the first course scheduled to start in Dec 2012.

Job details - Virgin Australia Cadet Pilot Program 2012 | Virgin Australia

good news for any potential cadets.

Don't get your hopes up too high.
8 cadets a year is not even going to make a dent on the recruitment and retention of pilots so i smell a rat.
My tip is that this will just be a vehicle for our beloved Mr T to select a few minority group candidates and internal selections so he can wave the Virgin flag down at Canberra.

Just was starting to fill out the online application and noticed that they want you to have completed year 12, i finish year 12 in 3 months time.

Does anyone know if i can still fill out the online application? (I called up Virgin and the HR manager on the phone wasnt sure :ugh:)

Early '90s cadetships they paid for training, accommodation, meals, etc AND gave us $304 a month for 'expenses'.

pull-up-terrain - I found the EBA from the link provided by DancingDog. There's lots of useful information within.

I also am finishing Year 12 in 3 months and was filling out the application today.

I sent an e-mail to the e-mail address provided on the FAQ area of the information page ([email protected]) stating that I will have completed Year 12 prior to the commencement of the cadetship. I hope for the best!

I further called Head Office / HR such as you. The lady who answered seemed completely unaware of the program even being announced yet! She gasped in surprise! haha. But unfortunately couldn't answer my question. However, she stated that if I do not get a response from the cadet e-mail address shortly (Don't know what shortly means - will wait a few days) to e-mail [email protected] which appears to be the usual e-mail they use anyway. I'm unsure whether to e-mail that address if I don't get a reply however as it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the cadetship.

I shall let you know when I get a reply and what they say.

G'day Keg,
I think it was shortly after that, cadets were to pay for their own training (from memory in the early 2000's, it was quoted about $85,000)

Did anyone tell you the one about the Airline that simultaneously employed pilots and made other redundant on the same day?

Left hand - meet right hand, welcome to aviation JayG.

Which airline did that? Terrible PR as a result I bet :uhoh:

Jay, people don't care about that, as long as they get their 299 return to Bali for their Bogan Wedding, they don't care. Good luck with the application

JayG, yes it happened quite a while ago, in an era of great economic & industrial turbulence. The point is that aviation is full of paradoxes, which your anecdote demonstrates.

"A long time ago in a Galaxy far away..." dates the decade for you.


Prophetic words from George Lucas...

Bad news...

Received an e-mail from the Virgin Australia Cadet Recruitment Team and unfortunately you must have passed Year 12 at the time of application.

I'm quite disappointed, but can't really do much more if they say no.

So unfortunately, I and pull-up-terrain are out of this years opportunities. But I have been advised to apply for next years program as they will be running more in the future. I did send them another e-mail asking how often they plan to run cadet programs with a few further questions.

Thanks for the good luck j3piperclub. Better luck next year hey?

It's a real shame Enchilada, disappointing. Even at my "young" age I still recall flying being a lot better - even as a passenger.
I suppose there is no chance of it changing any time soon? I guess I'm dreaming now lol :ugh: