I know quite a few QF cadets, over a range of ranks and I am proud to call some of them friends, and more than happy to operate with them.
You would hope that the selection process reflects the companies attitude to safety and performance, and that those with the aptitude for this sort of thing are recognised.

Most of the ire that cadets draw seems to come from the notion that they ,(or dad) bought their way into the company, whilst others had to endure third world conditions in some outback post, fighting for everything they got and worked their way to their goal. Big deal! Can we use that same logic and suggest those presently at Virgin that are there as a result of a 'blue star' or knowing the right bloke can be lumped into the same basket? And let's be honest, there are quite a few of those! Of course not.

At the end of the day, if something goes bang I really don't think years spent in the bush in a 210 are going to better equip you to handle the situation. An understanding that you don't know everything, a willingness to always want to improve, a professionalism to know your stuff and an attitude to embrace working with others, I believe, will.

My years in GA did teach me a great deal, but probably more about myself. I feel lucky for that opportunity and I'm glad I went down that path. But I'm afraid it all counts for nil if you aren't willing to do the things that are required to be an accountable pilot.

Well said 34R.

Still waiting for your response come fly.

What a fantastic idea that is (NOT). Instead of putting them in a low-risk environment like a highly-automated aircraft that more often than not is operating 100% in controlled airspace with the option of an ILS or VOR/DME at worst at each port. No lets put them in a high workload, short sector, minimal automation environment to "earn their stripes". The ATR has no auto throttle, no VNAV and will operate to ports with only an NDB with no distance information.

If you reckon an (albeit highly trained) cadet with 250 hours is better than a 3000 hr GA pilot then you ARE deluded.

Forget the useless generalisations about Qantas cadets and ex-mil cadets. The comparison HERE is between a 250 hour cadet that has been trained to operate an ATR vs a 2500hr (average skywest new employee) GA pilot who has ALSO been trained to operate an ATR.

Both 'candidates' will have received CRM training, ATR endorsement training, ATR Line Training. Yet 1 candidate has 2250hrs MORE hours of making radio calls, manipulating an aircraft in a variety of conditions, making decisions and even just knowing when it just "doesnt feel right".

Its either money making exercise or its being seeen to be "doing the right thing in the industry".

simple as that

Yes, Chadzat. EXACTLY. It's why Australian airline cadets are generally of a much higher standard than their counterparts in Europe who went straight to that highly automated jet. And as for delusional tendencies, I don't think a low-time cadet is better than a 3,000 hr GA bitchin' rockstar from the Top End, but if the training is of a high enough standard (which was certainly what I evidenced from training cadets myself a number of years ago), I would say they are certainly equal.

Chadzat has the right idea...there is definately a place for cadets in the industry, but not to replace the guys with experience. To generalise cadets as better, more professional pilots is a disgrace. Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me...

I agree with your assertion Bunglerat, but do you think its fair on the line captains of (in this instance) an ATR that they should have to operate with these cadets while they get their "higher standard" before you see them in your 737?

They have to learn from SOMEWHERE. No one magically acquires experience. The training standard and regime should be the same whether they are cadet or come from GA. A standard is a standard.

Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the FO on last years A380 incident a QF cadet...

But isnt that the point of all the aptitude tests, co-ordination tests, etc they do at interviews is to work out which candidates naturally have those "abilities". Lets say at the interview for the QF cadetship and there was 2500 applications for 20 spots. The 20 that get in for a start, would be the best of the best to make it so far with the amount of tests they do to filter out the "wrong" applicants. They are most likely switched on and are fast learners, have good leadership/teamworking skills, fairly motivated, most likely particapated in Airforce Cadets/aviation related activities (which gives them valuable skills) that get in to cadetships like these. I agree that they should be employing GA people over cadets (in Australia). But I dont think Cadet pilots arent as bad as what some people in this thread make them out to be.

Well said come fly.

That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.

:D

:D:D:D:D:D

Gold psycho. Couldn't have said it better myself! Exactly what I was thinking.

Come fly :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Touche psycho, touche.

Would a Piper be ok, or are they too simple without electric flaps?

McGrath, there can be no doubt about quality GA time in a Piper, but unless you've had an electric flap failure, followed by an emergency flap-less landing at 75kts, then you simply never will posses the steely resolve required of today's airline pilot. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(

So where does this leave the Lads and Ladettes who wish to join Virgin Australia Mainline (?) from other regional operators (Rex, Skippers, QLink etc?). No more direct entry?

Fuel-Off :ok:

Makes you wonder why the operators of Corporate Global Express and similar highly sophisticated long range VIP jets don't learn from the airline trends, and take in cadet F/O's. It would be cheaper than hiring experienced captains which they do at present. Seems strange that actual flying experience is highly valued by these operators, but sneered at by the airlines with bigger jets and lots more passengers..

As aposed to a cadet that's only ever flown a 172 with someone holding their hand? :rolleyes:

I just don't get this extreme example, who goes from flying a C210 to an A320 anyway? Is that like how Webber went from a peddle car to a F1?

The funniest part about cadet pilots is that they don't reach the insurance requirements to hire most light twins; I'm sure they think that it's unjustified but people who are better at rubix cubes than them think otherwise.

Never really understood the need for cadetships in Aus, giving the abundant availability of pilot. But the Cadets I fly with in CX are absolutely top notch. If there put through an independent selection process(NO nepotism), and giving high quality, full time, intense training, you get a product second to none. But is this necessary in Australia???? I really dont think so

Standard,
If you are a 'real' qantas captain then you dont seem to think much of your direct entry colleagues. Perhaps you might explain how the cadet selection process is better than the direct entry process?

Ohforsure,
That would be all of them with the exception of Qantas where an extended period as SO is required.

8aitch8,
The fact is in USA you must have 1500 hours before you set foot in the cockpit, so what is your point? We should go for the lower standard as in Europe or the higher standard as in USA?

Would any sychophants on this thread care to discuss the senate inquiry in particular recommendation #1?

Bottom line i dont want my family flying with the 18 yo 200hr zero to hero buy a job brigade. Thanks but no thanks. Frankly if the public really understood what was going on they would freak.

I can't find any link to any cadet program between virgin and skywest.....
so if someone has a link to prove it, then please share with us all.

Ok this whole thread is about HOSS getting his name up in lights and being the "first" poster to 'announce' the Vigin Australia Cadet Scheme.

The truth is all that has been announced internally is a request to providers for the service.

Thats it!

When something more substantial is available I am sure it will be up in lights for all to argue over.

Move along nothing else to see here

There was an add in the Australian a few weeks calling for training providers for a cadet program run by Virgin Australia and Skywest.

If you watched the senate inquiry, virgin did say the plan to start a cadet program in 2012.

Cadets will only make up a small amount of pilot numbers, so they will still recruit from the regionals etc.

The problem is the different type of cadet systems.

QF cadet system- good C&T system, time spent in the third seat, many sims before moving to a window seat. This gets the tick of approval but those who come from GA will always talk about the family links.

Virgin system - Ok to go onto the ATR before the jet but you would like to think they would use an "advanced cadet" system, but hang on isn't that just someone out of GA anyway. There is no place for a 250hr pilot in the ATR.
(I have flown this type of operation as a captain and somehow managed to survive but I would no wish this onto the traveling public.)

J*- What a joke. This is where a lot of us have problems with the cadet program
- If you have the money, you have the the job.
- under resourced company at ALL levels.
- overloaded C&T system, perhaps relatively inexperienced.
- a cadet program that wont be allowed to fail, due senate enquiry statements, which leads to a so called JUST culture, where the captain will be hung out to dry.

So if we are going to keep going around in circles on this please explain which type of "cadet system" you think is so brilliant.

Note the reference to the system not the individual.

Completely agree.

I don't have a problem with cadets, they are fine. In fact I have flown with many cadets (even as captains), and generally they have been very good. They usually do 5-6 years in the right seat before upgrading anyway, which gives plenty of experience. I'd be more worried about instructors who flogged a 152 in the circuit for 1500 hours then joins a regional and is a captain after 12 months. This IS happening :yuk:

I also don't have a problem with cadet programs in general, however I DO have a problem with airlines hiring cadets over qualified regional and GA pilots especially when there are a crapload of them sitting around who would kill to fly a jet. I'm looking at you, Jetstar :ugh:

Jumping the gun?
 

As was mentioned in a earlier post, haven't Virgin simply sent out a letter to training providers asking them to do a proposal and costing for this Cadet Scheme? I remeber Tiger Australia sent one of those out recently as well.

I know Virgin and Tiger are a world apart but things happen and plans can get scrapped quicker than they are thought up. I would like to say at the earliest this scheme would be 12 to 18 months away at best. Why don't we all sit back and see what the fine print is (if it ever gets off the ground) and then we can all sling mud at each other armed with facts as opposed to speculation.

Lastly, while FNQ, NT and Northern WA continue to have people living there we will continue to have GA. I back this up by the fact that I had a tough time finding a park on the GA apron at Cairns 2 weeks ago.

Interesting to see if it eventuates to be exclusively ab-initio program or is open to those with ATPL's & a few hours

Interesting discussion going on over the last few pages. It seems that once again there are those out to bag the cadets at every opportunity they get. I agree with the comments that you get equally bad pilots from GA/Mil/cadets, and from all three you also get excellent pilots.

Now for a very big generalisation, and it doesn't apply in all cases. My experience in training candidates is that mostly the guys from a cadet background are willing to admit their lack of experience, and want to make up for it by absorbing information like sponges, trying to improve their knowledge and understanding of aviation. They are for the most part very hard working. The average GA (and even ex-regional airline) pilot that comes through the training programme has a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Some have 2-, 3-, 4000, sometimes 5000 hours and lacks basic knowledge in aviation. It makes teaching of more advanced theory concepts fairly difficult, which most ex-cadets seem to not struggle with too much.

Advanced concepts? :D

Yep, press this button and it does this, press this button and it does that. Don't push that button though. Why? Just don't push it :hmm:

The hardest endorsements I ever completed were turboprop stuff. Jets and their endorsements are designed for the lowest common denominator who fly them.

Yep pretty advanced stuff.

The hardest flying is single pilot IFR in remote locations. This is what the cadets lack.

I'd consider the right decision making ability an advanced concept :ok: This requires experience.

I fly with cadets. Some have great SOPs, some have great knowledge, some have great flying ability, but none have all 3. Generally though they are all keen, just like any other Pilot I have flown with.

Regardless of whether an experienced GA guy is better than a cadet or vice versa, the people making the decisions couldn't care less. Flight crews are a figure in the expense column, the name of the game is to lower that figure.

Exactly!

And what better way to achieve that than with a Cadetship.:ok:

I would suggest that rather than not knowing it they have simply forgotten it over the last 10 or so years since they did their last CPL/ ATPL exams. Where as a cadet is straight out of flying school with all that info still fresh in their heads. You would probably also find that a 5000hr regional or GA pilot hasn't had to sit down and do any serious study for several years and so they take a bit longer to get into study mode than say a Cadet who has just done 18months or so of intense study and training.

Howcome all jobs have been removed or closed on the Virgin Recruitment bfound website?

DeltaT, Virgin have changed their recruitment website. It is no longer "bfound".

It is now on their main site.

cadetship is in very early stages still over a year away

edit: heard from a c&t captain

Going through G.A. allows you to pick up a lot of sources in the industry that give you quite a bit of information about different 'goings-on'.

You should try it! :ok:

Serious question
 

When is a cadet no longer a cadet?

When is a GA driver no longer a GA driver?

When is a RAAFie no longer one?

Virgin Recruitment for 2012
 

Virgin Australia Pilot Cadet Program - News - Flightdeck Consulting Airline Interview Specialists


Just found this on the web. Def looks like they are trying to follow Qantas cadet programs wonder how much cash newbies will have to cough up?? At least there not straight onto the E-Jet or 737. But still not a fan!!


Anyone got any inside info on possible plans this year for VA. Have heard many mixed reviews. i.e. most recruiting will be onto E-Jet as lots transferring onto 737.. Have heard opposite of that that there plenty of room for 737 slots in Syd/Mel. Also hear the number of QF resumes hitting the pile is quite large. This would surely make the odds a bit tougher. :eek:

Guess that will depend upon additional aircraft joining the fleet. I think there is only 2 or 3 A330's slated to join the fleet this year.

Skywest
 

With the cadets who complete the course being offered a position with Skywest, this would mean the cadet needs to live in WA. Does anyone know if Virgin will offer allowances for accomodation for people who don't reside there, or would they just have to tough it out for 2 years?

Truss,

Do some research. The Skywest ATR's operated for Virgin are all based on the East Coast (BN and CB) so your base would be one of them.

There is no way Virgin will pay an allowance or accomodation for you, that don't do it for the 20% of pilots of the current pilots who commute, so there is no chance cadets will get it.

...a LOT of research. Unfortunately you're sorely mistaken if you think an airline (at least in this country) is going to pay you extra or your relocation costs for not being in a base that you want. Allowances are paid for overnighting away from home base . If you were to be based in Perth, then that's your base = no allowances.

It doesn't matter anyway because the ATRs operated by Skywest for Virgin are all based on the east coast as GAFA said. At this stage...

You should try for the Cathay cadetship though, apparently the pay and conditions are phenomenal. :ok: