From the Flight Deck Consulting link a few posts ago..

"Successful candidates, upon completion of their course will be offered First Officer positions on the ATR 72 with partner airline Skywest. Following a two year internship with Skywest it is expected the cadets will move to the companies fleet of 777-300ER as Cruise First Officers."

IF this is how it eventuates, the good thing here is the opportunity for progression (something others don't seem to offer), but looks like 4-5 years of fairly ordinary income. Not bad though if you are young and single.

And as for Cathay, there is a very interesting thread about life as an SO on Fragrant Harbour Wannabes - worth a read.

That seems a bit backwards doesn't it? The right hand seat of an ATR in heavy icing conditions and multiple sectors is far harder and requires a lot more for a newbie than being a second officer in the cruise of a jet. Plus the ATR Captain would have a high workload as well. Jet first then turboprop.

Maybe, but it's the way of the world: start small & step up by increments. The statement, "jets are easier to fly than props," may be true (sort of), but that kind of attitude is fraught with danger. Having multiple levels of automation at your fingertips in a jet is very helpful, as opposed to man-handling a steam-driven aeroplane with props (not that I'm specifically accusing the ATR of being steam-driven). Flying from ILS to ILS under the umbrella of constant ATC monitoring is certainly easier than ducking & weaving around traffic & weather OCTA & at CTAFs. But what about the fact that things are happening a whole lot faster in just about every phase of flight? What about energy management? What about the fact that it's a lot easier to slow a prop from 250kts inside the terminal area than a heavy jet? What about when you've got your profile looking just right, & all of a sudden ATC reduce your track miles to tighten up the sequence, & suddenly you're scrambling to get it under control?

Jets may be easier to fly than props, so long as it's under optimum conditions. But the increased levels of automation can be just as much a trap as a help (if you don't have a solid understanding of the numerous modes of operation & how they interact), & with regard to the other stuff, as soon as ATC start dicking you around & messing up your game plan, props start looking a whole lot easier to manage.

Whilst I have no problem with cadets, I would not want to see one thrown into any seat of a jet (including the jumpseat) without first having gained some consolidation experience in props. That's just the way it is.

Additional to bunglerats comments is the fact that in australia domestic jets operate into ctafs class G non precision 30m rwy approach aerodrome which just quadrouples the workload. Trying to avoid traffic/airspace whilst getting the approach sorted whilst running two freq is a high workload in a jet. Cadets should be in GA doing charter somewhere but thats another story all together

On a 6500 Nm sector you will hit wx at some stage of flight. Most long haul flights cross the ITCZ at some stage.

My experience a few years ago with TFC OCTA was that most pilots dealt with TFC threats very badly. Especially in the West.

Very true about Automation and energy management: High levels of automation, paradoxically, often need a high level of operator knowledge and situational awareness to use properly and safely. Unfortunately, automation is often complex to understand and serves to degrade SA :suspect:

I agree with the above. Hence why I was saying being a second officer on inter-continental flights in the cruise only is far better. They wont be required to do as much as a Capt or FO at each end of the flight. Works for QF et al. Cheers

It's exactly what QF did for all those years in their very successful cadetship that generally only the most intelligent guys got into.

They flew a metro or the like with skippers, pearl, Airnorth, macair etc and when they had been there for a couple of years with over 1500TT they were offered a backseat in the 744.

Whilst the flying is more complex in a turboprop due to the nature of the flying, they are easy to slow up and don't have a couple of hundred people plus behind you.

You can do amazing things in a turboprop, 1:1 decents, barbers pole at 5nm and land with a stabilized approach.

You can't do that in a jet!

I'm betting that within 2-3 more posts this is going to turn into a GA vs. cadetship thread.

We'll be watching this thread carefully. Any such posts will be deleted. :)

TID

None of those things can be done in an ATR however. Its a very different beast to a Dash.

The thing that makes this idea crazy (yes i know qantarse did it before) is that the cadets will be sent to a differnt company for a very short period of time-leading to 'stuff this, ill be on a jet in 2 years time'. Where does that leave the Captains of Skywest who have to fly with this attitude in the RHS?

Let's say VMO is 240kt. Therefore a 1:1 = 4000fpm @ 240kt. Maintain this to 5nm (or 5000ft for a 1:1 profile), and be stable?

Let's say VREF is 120kt. That would require a ROD of 2000fpm. Can't see how one could be stable if flying a constant 1:1 profile.

What turboprop aircraft would that be in? I really would like to know :E

Dunno about TPs, Huge, but I recon the F28 could just about do that :ok:

7000'/11 DME was ho hum.:E

There has been talk of having 2 types of cadets. Zero time cadets would go straight to the 777 as CFO's and advanced ( ie already have a CPL or higher) would go to the RH of the ATR for a few years and RH seat of the Ejet/737.

As for the ATR captains, if they want to fly jets for Virgin Australia they will have to apply just like every other pilot. No short cuts for them. They had a chance to open doors last year and they blew it!

Awww diddums, fwowing the toys outta the pwam are we? Upset you didn't get to leave those big flight levels to come down and show all the turboprop clowns how skygods do it?

I wasn't aware that the ATR Captains PERSONALLY vetoed any VB pilots moving. Furthermore, I would have put money on those 'doors' being one way, with no progression guaranteed from Skywest to VB.

j3

Just saw on the Virgin half year report, they are planning to have thier first batch of cadets selected by the end of this financial year! that means they'll be releasing something soon.wohoo!

Any idea on what type of cadetship this will be?

I was personally speaking to an employee from one of the training organisations who are fighting for the tender that it was rumored to be an ab-initio cadetship. This organisation at the time was in their 4th round of negotiations with Virgin.

On the other hand I personally spoke to a guy in an australian based aviation consultancy company who said word on the street is its meant to be an advanced cadetship, much like QLinks traineeship.

All rumors though so I guess this post means nothing hahaha.

Biggles

My sources tell me that it is to be an all ab-initio cadet ship initially.

As has been pointed out, Virgin is currently in the process of selecting its training provider with further interviews being held only last week.

First course is programmed to start in the last quarter of 2012.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

updates
 

just wondering if anyone has any further information regarding this program? Surely they must be close to announcing specifics?

Very close Luke!!

Watch this space!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Kelpie - I might be wrong, but you seemed very against the Jetstar cadetship, but seem in favour of the Virgin program. Why?

Aimpoint.
Simple really. One is a pay to fly program based on ability to pay and the other one is a cadetship where selection will be merit based and no upfront cash requirement.
One will be a proper program similar to the old Qantas scheme and the other a rip off, supply of cheap labour, where the biggest chequebook wins.:ugh:

But I'm only guessing and do not profess to be talking for Kelpie.

SS

Let's hope they don't find a training provider and the whole thing falls over, never thought Virgin would sink to the level of One*. Very disappointing Virgin!

And yes Kelpie why are you for the Virgin cadetship?

How about you await the details before you criticise? As sniffer has pointed out, not all cadetships are the same. The details will decide whether there will be support from the rest of us in the industry. Not all cadetships are crap.

My comments above aside. I see little need for a cadet scheme in Australia, due the current supply of qualified hopefuls already out there.

If it is to ensure a supply in any upcoming shortage, after the current supply dwindles, then they are to be encouraged.

SS

QF have been running a cadetship for over ten years so it's hardly a Jetstar thing. However that has ended badly for those recruited in recent times who have paid $100 000+ for flying training and are now stuck on regional a FO salary with a reasonable amount of debt one would imagine.

Hopefully the Virgin one will provide a chance of career progression rather than being left out in the cold.

Lol. Closer to 20 years. First course started in early 1990. A hiatus between the end of '92 and about '97 and then it went for about ten years. I think it's in hiatus again. Given the lack of recruiting in mainline I suspect that hiatus will be a long one indeed.

Many of the graduates of those early '90s courses are now 767 and 737 Captains.

I never bashed the cadet scheme, just made an observation. Surely many of the issues brought up in the last 18 months about the limitations of cadetships will still apply to Virgin. And who is not to say this isn't a way to reduce costs either? We don't know all of the details yet. The program could be a very good thing, I'm just looking at it with eyes very wide open and without the borghetti tinted glasses.

More info..
 

Kelpie, does this mean you have some inside information you are able to share? I have been reading this thread for some time now, and I am very interested to find out more about this program.

They avoid the biggest problem if they put them into the back seat of a 777 for a few years prior to F/O training though.

Agreed Keg. I hope they don't end up in the ATR. Just because it is a turboprop doesn't make it any easier to operate single pilot.

Just for the record I am not entirely "anti-cadet ship". It is very difficult to say they don't work when they have been adopted by airlines across Europe and Asia for many years albeit funded fully by the airline. That being said I have serious reservations whether a pilot with a new CPL and MECIR has the ability to properly support a captain on an aircraft such as the A320 or 737.

My concerns are primarily that cadet ships should not be the only recruitment stream and that they should supplement direct entry rather than replace it. Cadetships should, if used only be awarded to the cream of the applicants as was the QF cadetship once upon a time and their numbers should be highly restricted and their induction highly supervised (eg second officer for 2-3 years prior to a window seat below 10,000)

The other bone I have is the way that airlines, particularly Jetstar have bastardised the model, not only to an applicant pays system placing undue financial pressure on cadets but also by taking on cadets in such large numbers.

The announcement on which flight training provider will be awarded the contract is imminent and i expect that within a week or so the launch of the cadetship will occur and more details of the cadet ship will be released.

This is some of the information I have some of which is already out there:

Initial stages of the selection process are expected to be carried out by the chosen flight training provider with later stages having more VA input.

The selected cadets will not be expected to provide any funding upfront but may be asked to enter into a bonding arrangement.

The cadetship is 100%. Ab-initio with no advanced entry for those with CPL etc. Course duration 18 months. Course includes cpl,MECIR and multi crew course including ATPLs.

Initial course 12 cadets to commence 3rd quarter 2012.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Kelpie, do you know any further information regarding the flight training schools? It was stated that VA had narrowed it down to 3, do you know which 3 schools are/were in the running? Or do you know the final selection?

Wow, sounds like the entirety of the year 12 graduate population is going to apply, especially if no upfront cost is involved. It should will be good because if they only pick 12, there is a good chance that they won't be duds.

First 777 out of the paintshop, looks good.

http://reheatimages.smugmug.com/Civi...20120412-L.jpg

PoppaJo
 

Madre de Dios! What a beauty! Wouldn't mind being at the pointy end of that...

I think the vast majority of current captains would support your view wholeheartedly.

Training Provider
 

Word on the street is that Flight Training Adelaide have submitted the successful tender for the Virgin ab-initio cadetship.

If they've completed line training and successfully checked to line, isn't that saying they've reached the required standard to competently operate as a first-officer? Every F/O has got to start from somewhere ..

On the day they demonstrated they could fly within the required tolerances. That may be a series of sectors in CAVOK from ILS to ILS, or it may have been something more challenging.

However does that mean they can adequately support a Captain going in to a non-towered aerodrome at night for a non-precision approach with traffic and weather on the minima the next week?

You are correct, everyone does need to start somewhere, but does it really have to be in the RHS of a high capacity RPT aircraft? I suspect that accountants simply point to Europe and the apparent success of cadetships direct to RHS HC-RPT. There is a huge difference - a low vis departure to a CAT III autoland is a procedural flight from the FO as support pilots point of view. It is a series of yes/no decisions and calls that can be learned by rote. It is an entirely different proposition to the complex scenario above. That requires active management of the external world beyond the aircraft by the support pilot & requires judgment & experience in order to provide adequate support for the Captain. Not only is the FO there to provide support - he is also the vital cross check on the Captain. Captains make mistakes too.

Operators that have direct entry cadets that have SO's/ Cruise FO's provide a much better environment. They get to see how to operate multi-crew, the normal flow of the flight and simulator time to practice and make mistakes - mistakes are an integral part of the learning process. At least in this country we have a diverse range of operations to provide an excellent learning environment before stepping up to HC-RPT.

So yes, they may have passed their check ride to the minimum required standard - but is this the way we really want to operate? How are Jetstar going with their cadet program? Are the cadets flying with training Captains for a considerable period of time beyond what could reasonably be expected to make the line standard? If so, there is a reason for that, we have a different operating environment to Europe.

Training provider
 

SCPitch, where did you hear this information??