Jetstar legal action update
 

As a number of questions get asked what happened to the action here are the last couple of newsletters to give you an idea.

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 15 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update
-----------------------------------------------------------

On Thursday 11 August 2011 we, along with AIPA Jetstar pilot reps, met again with the company regarding the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under our EBA.

We have concluded discussions regarding one of the part-time options, now called “Flexi-Line (Part-Time)” employment (FL). The proposed FL model agreement has been circulated amongst the AFAP Jetstar Council Committee and Base Reps. We expect that the agreement will be signed off on Tuesday 16 August 2011. A full copy of the agreement will be distributed to the pilot group as soon as it is finalised. The broad features of the model/agreement are as follows:

• A minimum payment guarantee of 56 credit hours per month;
• Extra flying allowance after 56 credit hours;
• Extra flying allowance and work day off payments at the same rate as full-time pilots;
• A maximum of 15 days of rostered work per month;
• 11 designated days off (DDOs) per month (as per a full-time pilot), no stand-by duties and the balance in duty free days (DFDs) per month;
• Grouping of a minimum of 7 consecutive days away from work (DFDs and DDOs) per roster;
• A 10% cap on the number of new hire FL positions;
• A pathway for FL pilots to become full-time should they choose to do so;
• A guaranteed ability for existing pilots to opt-in and opt-out of fixed terms as an FL pilot should they choose to do so, at least 5% before 1 July 2012 and 10% after 1 July 2012;
• Annual leave and other EBA conditions and payments as per full-time pilots;
• A joint review of the model on 1 July 2012.

An indication of the progress we have made in developing what we believe is a fair and balanced model is the emphasis on ensuring that existing pilots are able to access FL employment.

Your Council and Base Reps are again meeting via teleconference this week. The next meeting (or series of meetings) with the company is scheduled for the week beginning Monday 22 August 2011. It is hoped that this series of meetings will resolve the outstanding issues of mobility and, most importantly, cadet employment.

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. We have made positive progress to achieving this aim and remain hopeful of further progress.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or (xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected]) or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
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TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 24 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update

Yesterday and today we, along with AIPA Jetstar pilot reps, held another meeting with the company regarding the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under our EBA. After formally signing off on the new “Flexi-Line (Part-Time)” employment (FL) model we commenced discussions on arrangements for the employment of all Australian based Jetstar cadets by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA.

As many of you will be aware, the Jetstar cadets are currently employed under individual contracts with an entity called Jetstar Group Pty Ltd. Amongst other things, these contracts require a cadet pay $10,500 per year over six (years) to Jetstar and other bonding arrangements. The legality of these contracts is the basis of our current proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia.

After robust discussions on the first day (and both parties seeking further legal advice overnight) we are pleased to advise that we have reached in-principle agreement for the employment of these Jetstar Group cadets under your EBA. The main points of the agreement are:

• No repayment of training costs;
• Refund of training costs paid to date under the group contract (if any);
• A 3 year $36,000 bond;
• Payment as a junior F/O for a maximum of two years (guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118);
• Payment as a F/O Level 1 after two years or attainment of an ATPL (whichever occurs first);
• Flexi-Line employment;
• Current basing to remain;
• Seniority number and all rights and entitlements as per the EBA;

We expect that the cadets will be offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA within the next week or so. This will secure a seniority number ahead of all new hires.

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. As a result of our considered and successful industrial and legal strategy we are well on the way to achieving our aim.

Further meetings to deal with mobility and other part-time employment options will be scheduled shortly. We will keep advised of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or (xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected]) or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 29 August 2011
RE: Jetstar EBA Discussions – Update (Cadets)

PAPER-WORK FINALISED

Last week we reported that we had reached in-principle agreement for the employment of all current Jetstar cadets by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA. The main points of the agreement being:

• No repayment of training costs;
• Refund of training costs paid to date under the Jetstar Group contract (if any);
• A 3 year $36,000 bond;
• Payment as a junior F/O for a maximum of two years (guaranteed minimum annual base salary of $57,118 – increasing in January 2012 in line with the EBA);
• Payment as a F/O Level 1 after two years or attainment of an ATPL (whichever occurs first);
• Flexi-Line employment;
• Current basing to remain;
• Seniority number and all rights and entitlements as per the EBA.

Today we met to finalise the paperwork. The agreement which we finalised today covers all cadets currently flying within Jetstar Australia (whether checked to line or in training).

The cadets currently flying within Australia will now be offered permanent employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under the EBA. The offers of employment are being made as soon as possible in order to ensure that their seniority is appropriately reflected (i.e. ahead of the next intake of new hires).

From the outset our aim has been to ensure that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited on fair and reasonable terms under your EBA. As a result of our considered and successful industrial and legal strategy we have ensured that every F/O and cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the rights and protections of your EBA.

We intend to meet with the company to deal with issues such as mobility and other part-time employment options in the near future. We will keep advised of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected] or xxx) or Andrew Molnar ([email protected] or (03) 9928 5737).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
----------------------------

Thanks for the update Lawrie.

Winning the battle but not the war I feel. The extent to which Jetstar management have rolled over and let you tickle their bellies is a sure sign they wanted to keep this out of the federal court - at all costs.

Am I correct in assuming that the federation's part of the deal is to cease the court action against JQ?

I hope that this 'deal' covers the cessation of using australian bases for the line training of overseas crew who are employed by Jq NZ or any other JQ franchise.

I look forward to you posting the answers to the questions in the same way you have done with the press releases

The Kelpie

Those new conditions for cadets actually look somewhat reasonable now...

Might be a different story if the Judges and Barristers were actually consultants with links to the Execs, there would be tonnes of legal action being thrown their way !

Is this a joke?

Why take on the responsibility for this wage.

Qantas Cabin Crew get paid more.

Hi Lawrie ,
Have you explained to all the Jetstar pilots that the " part time " pilots will be used to stop them from getting called out on days off for the enormous money they get for that ? Have you also explained to the Jetstar f/o's that now there is carte Blanche to employ direct entry Capts over the top of them forever ? What shrewd industrial move .

What is Flexi-Line employment?

What is the usual salary for a jetstar FO as per the Australian EBA?

Agreed, but that's the JQ EBA pay rate for a "Junior FO" who is defined as a pilot operating as an FO who doesn't have an ATPL. At least these cadets are limited to two years max on this pitiful salary, whereas the EBA could keep them there for much longer.


I don't think you understand the policy. PT pilots get 15-16 days off a month. They get the same money for being called out on a day off as do full timers. They can't be rostered for standby. What incentive does JQ have for calling in a PT pilot for "day off" work over a full time guy?

Once again I fail to understand your logic. JQ can't make command upgrades or base/type changes conditional on FL employment. Many JQ FO's will be bypassed by QF MOU guys coming across. The fact is that these FO's were aware of the MOU when they joined, so whilst it's a case of poor timing for them, everything in this regard is above board and in accordance to what was agreed upon prior to their employment.

McG- Lawrie has given a brief synopsis of this in his post. It is basically reduced divisor flying with more days off. i.e. you are subjected to a min guarantee of 75% of the full time salary but can only be rostered to work 75% of the days that a full timer can. Extra flying on top of the min. guarantee is at the same overtime rate as for full timers. Day off flying is at the same rate too.

Overall this policy means that cadets are only bonded for 3 years/ $36k and do not need to make any repayments on debts incurred for their training. The full time salary for a new hire FO at JQ is $87 262. On Flexi- Line employment the base salary for a new hire FO is $65 447. A new hire needs to pay off a $36k debt through salary sacrifice over 33 months.

After paying off their endorsement debt to JQ a new hire FO would not be any better off than a cadet if they both worked minimum hours. If the two pilots worked longer than min hours then the "direct entry FO" would be better off because their hourly pay is higher.

All this is not trying to justify the substandard conditions of the JQ EBA, but rather to point out that it is the EBA, and not the Flexi-Line employment model or the deal that has been offered to the cadets recently that is inadequate.

what about Jetstar pilot outside AUS
 

All above is about Australian bases pilot. Are there any arrangement affecting jet star pilot outside Australia?

But surely on expiration of the current EBA the award would kick in which makes no such provision for JFO's and provides that the minimum payment for a member of a320 crew is much higher than that agreed anyway.

Remember the award is designed as a safety net .

I wonder if the graduating ab initio cadets will now be required given that their training costs are much higher ( approx. $220k) and that given that all cadets will be flexi line pilots and that there is a 10% cap in flexi line pilots compared to full timers.

I fear we have only got the headlines from AFAP and not both sides if the story.

The Kelpie

Yossarian , they won't be calling in FL pilots on their days off , they will be using them to negate the need to call in the current pilots on their days off for the fantastic money they currently get for that . The nett result no more day off pay for anyone . The argument is why not just employ a pilot on a normal fulltime contract .
Why does jetstar need to bring in direct entry captains ? This has nothing to do with the Qantas MOU . These are external Capts who will be brought in over the top of current jetstar f/o's . Why would anyone support this . They can claim 10% FL only however once in they can just keep making FL pilots fulltime continually bringing in DEC's negating the need to ever upgrade a current jetstar F/O . Or should we trust Jetstar management to do the right thing ? Why would the AFAP and the AIPA jetstar reps support this . When advised by AIPA that this could not go ahead there was a major dummy spit by the jetstar reps . Why are they so passionate about allowing Direct Entry Capts to squash the careers of their F/O's . While I'm on it . What will happen to the Jetstar 330 pilots when the Qantas 330's they are flying finally go back to Qantas ? With the current push into Asia it seems no 787's will ever be based in Australia . What happens then ?

Herb

What makes you think DECs are anymore likely/possible than before? Specific clauses please... As it stands, I disagree the FL policy will disadvantage current FOs in that respect.

As for the day off payment, they will be just as short and disorganised as before, so WDO payments wont change. If WDO payments were more expensive than employing pilots then one would think thats what they'd do. FL positions have a minimum gauranteed pay, so its in the companys interest to have them working, not sitting there ready to take up the slack.

Hi Waren . Ask you jetstar pilot reps about DEC's . They are negotiating them right now with your company . With the support of the AFAP . I would love to be told how wrong I am .

Thanks for the update Lawrie.

Do the parties have to report back to the Fed Court on the outcomes of these meetings given their "interest" in this?

Jetstar has intended to employ Tiger DECs. Dont know how far this has got. Line pilots have made their position clear to both unions on this.

AFAIK the negotiations you refer to are around some sort of bypass deal line guys might be able to stomach. We'll see.

Completely seperate from FL Policy and cadet issues.

and again... http://m.uploadedit.com/b97/22670231.gif

Is that correct? I know that when my EBA expires the provisions within it continue on until a new EBA is agreed to. Is the JQ EBA different in this regard? That would be a major loophole for the company to exploit.

I have heard the DEC"S are dead in the water......

It's only been the CP pushing for it, as they are his mates he's trying to employ..

Aussie herb


YOU ARE WRONG. :) DEC’s are a JPC matter and the JPC have killed it. If you talk to the 4 pilots who are negotiating with the company you would know that there is no talk of Tiger DEC’s in their meetings. These meetings have been about the flexi line employment and getting the cadets employed under the EBA. The reps are doing a bloody good job. Have a look at what they have achieved:


The flexi line deal gives a pilot a 3.6% pay rise over an existing full time pilot doing 75hrs per month or more.

The flexi line pilot only has to work 15 days per month.

The flexi line pilot gets 6 weeks annual leave paid at the full time rate.

The flexi line pilot gets a guaranteed 7 consecutive days off per month out of their 15 or 16 total days off.

The Jetstar pilots have right of veto to any changes to the flexi line policy.

The cadets don’t pay a cent back for their training.

The cadets get offered permanent employment in Australia under the EBA.

The cadets don’t have to qualify for an ATPL to get a pay rise to FO wages – under the EBA they could have been stuck on JFO rates for years while they got command time and all the requirements for an ATPL.

The cadets bond has been slashed from 6 years $84,000 to 3 years $36,000.

Again, talk to the pilot reps.

Jetstar have capitulated. They have gone running with their tails between their legs after the AFAP gave them a massive kick; the pilots have won. The Jetstar Group contract is DEAD. All recruitment is under the EBA. The federal court action was a masterstroke by the AFAP and is the sole reason that the pilot reps have been so successful. 4 months ago the Jetstar pilots were looking down the barrel of no more recruitment under the EBA – they would have been smashed come EBA negotiation time. Instead they have a decent part time policy and all pilots are to be employed under the EBA. They live to fight another day.

4 months ago Jetstar tried one of the biggest stunts to undermine the Jetstar pilots employment conditions. This could have spread industry wide and undermined all pilots employment conditions if Jetstar were successful. The AFAP put a stop to that in no uncertain terms – they went to a gun fight with a canon.

On the other hand you have the Chihuahua called AIPA. They have done absolutely nothing to try to stop the Jetstar Group Contract. All AIPA have done is bark up the wrong tree and criticise the AFAP’s strategy. They unilaterally dismissed the Jetstar subcommittee chairman (against the Jetstar pilots wishes) for sharing information with the AFAP pilots reps. The only reason the AIPA reps are in the room is because of the AFAP’s court case. Where is AIPAs’ industrial savvy and legal might when the Jetstar pilots were facing the biggest threat to their ongoing employment conditions? When are the Jetstar pilots going to hold AIPA to account for the moronic handling of Jetstar issues? When are AIPA going to actually win a court case on behalf of the Jetstar pilots?

I know who I would want on my side when Jetstar inevitably come at the pilots again bearing gifts of pineapples and cacti.

Keith,

You make some good points, however don't forget that the AFAP are the ones who are signatories to the disgraceful EBA that the JQ pilots work under.

If they had done a better job in the first place none of this stuff would have happened.

AIPA do have their issues but they have been taking it up to JQ management for a couple of years now, holding them to account at every opportunity, so to say they are not making life difficult for JQ management is tad out of touch.

So the cadets that signed up to 40,000 or so NZ dollars and paid for training with the intention of undercutting every single pilot in Australia, now get a job in Australia, on the EBA and get their training paid for?

Whilst those who didn't pay for the cadetship thinking, 'I'm going to do the right thing and not try and undercut everyone' gain nothing.

How can we possibly expect people to do the right thing and not accept dog**** T+C's when those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity (see part time 'group' contract before)?

Fact of life for any pilot joining an established EBA. Hard yards/negotiation already done by your predecessors. Circle of life.

Not defending the cadets or their actions however.

Can i state that i am not here to debate the issues only posting newsletters to give those with an interest some background. Kelpie you mistake the fact that the Federation is industrial relations (IR) not public relations (PR) or spin, the documents are our newsletters and the work of the Jetstar Pilot reps.
Yes we did post a copy of a media release elsewhere that was to also clarify our role in the industrial agreement rather than another PR puff piece about involvement in actual negotiations.

so enough from me and this is the latest newsletter.
-----------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 1 September 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update on AFAP Application to the Federal Court


JUDGE EXTENDS ORDER FOR COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS

We are pleased to advise that today (1 September 2011) Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:

“Upon the Respondent continuing its undertaking given to the Court on 10 June 2011 that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 4:30pm on Friday 28 October 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders by consent that:

1. Orders 3 and 4 made on 21 July 2011 are set aside.

2. On or before 4.00 pm on Thursday, 22 September 2011, the Applicant file and serve any reply.

3. A further directions hearing be listed at 9.00am on Friday 28 October 2011.

4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.

5. Costs reserved.”

The practical effect of the above orders is the continuation of the prohibition on the company from offering further Jetstar Group contracts to First Officers and Cadets while the matter is determined (or resolved).

While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues (the next hearing is scheduled for 28 September 2011) we have been meeting extensively with the company. The aim of these discussions has been to ensure the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA.

We continue to make progress towards our aim. Within the last week or so we have ensured that every F/O and Cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the protections of your EBA. We will keep you updated of developments.

If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected]).

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

I don't think you'd be alone there JonnyBravo...modern day $cab$ as far as I'm concerned.

Fuel-Off :ok:

That's fine and I understand what you are saying, however, these scum didn't join the established EBA.

They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves, at the expense of every other pilot and prospective pilot in Australia who wanted to be able to live in the country they love and do the job they love.

After all this, the only 'punishment' they get is a jet job, with a guaranteed pay rise after 2 years to the same rate as someone who has slogged it out in GA and gotten 2-3000 hours of real experience. Plus free training from whatever level they were (so CPL/MECIR from ab initio).

It's a disgrace.

Wow, thats funny, the way I see it, the Jetstar pilots did exactly the same thing to the rest of the industry not that long ago when they accepted their EBA, suckers.

Good point.

Difference is Jetstar pilots still have to put up with the disgraceful EBA they signed up to. That's their punishment.

The equivalent would be if the pilots who agreed to undercut Qantas by joining Jetstar when the whole thing started, were given Qantas T+C's.

It's rewarding bad behavior ffs.

We will see Keith . The advice I have is that it is still the companies discretion to employ DEC's . As for you view on the IR landscape , let's just say our views are not alligned . Copying in AFAP is one thing . Copying in the company is another . Having a hissy fit and resigning from Aipa is slightly different from being dismissed . Be careful of worshipping false idols . Hate to see the Jetstar guys being used as pawns anymore than they already have been . Where do the 330 guys go when the 787's ( if they ever come ) are based somewhere in Asia ? QF 330's start returning to those that have been paying for them in 2012 , next year . What's the AFAP's plan for that one . AIPA has one and is fighting it at the highest level .

Thanks for the reply Lawrie.

FYI i am aware of the difference between IR and PR.

You still have not answered my question about overseas pilots undertaking line training on the aussie line whilst paid under their ts and cs away from the EBA.

Can you confirm this practice has been adequately dealt with in your discussions.

Thank You

The Kelpie

Yes all official. I have seen the style of document being currently issued to the cadets.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Lawrie Cox ,
Well done , you have always been fair dinkum a genuine trade unionist who always has the best interests of members at heart . Unlike some "Johnny come lately"chaps who pose as union people that we have today. Good result, you will live to fight another day

The company has streamlined the operation by putting all on EBA.
When the EBA expires look for a loss of T & Cs in one go.
They now have unlimited qualified including QF pilots on the books who will work for way less to either:
1 Live in Australia

2 Have a job as opposed to unemployment.

Enjoy the next 2 Years boys.....

I'm quite happy that the Jetstar cadets are on the EBA....


There has been some well publicised concerns that because the cadets (over the 6? year period) were cheaper than direct entry FO's, that Jetstar would be focusing their recruitment on these kids (to save money). Now that these cadets are on the same EBA and have had their bond reduced I would imagine that the financial attraction of cadets vs. direct entry FO's would not be as great for Jetstar...

Continuing my imagination....one might assume that because the cadets are now much more expensive for Jetstar that they might start to focus more on direct entry FO's again???


More than happy for others' opinions on this 'assumption'...


Eternity.

So quick to condem
 

This has certainly been an interesting read from the point of view of an upcoming cadet.

You all seem to forget one simple truth - cadets are people as well. They are simply trying to make the most out of the situation they are in.

In my case, I'm training at the moment. I'm going to spend around 14 months training, during that time earning the bare minimum to survive as a student. I have a wife and two children.

Once I'm done with my training I have very limited options:

1. Go into GA. Get some relevant experience for airline flying and be paid $30k a year (if I'm lucky to get paid at all)
2. Get into a cadet program. Get experience that is 100% relevant for airline flying and get paid $60k a year (minus of course paying back my type/line ratings).

So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.

Cadet programs are less than perfect. We all know this, every one of us in our course knows that overall cadet programs are going to result in the pay rates for pilots going down. But there are no other better/more reasonable options available. There is such a massive gap between those two options it isn't funny. What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.

Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to detirmine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do whats best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.

I did and many others have. In fact I know more guys who have turned down REX and Jetstar than have taken them up. I have engineering friends who when they went for graduate jobs NEGOTIATED their pay upwards. They knew what they were worth, as did their employers, and they were rewarded for it.

They didn't have shiny jet syndrome. Things don't always come easy, on a platter, sometimes you have to work for them.

.....and that makes us all arseholes for being slightly unhappy about peolple moving in, voiding our years of hard work and taking jobs away from those of us who did the GA thing?

Quick to condemn I think not. Good luck sport.

PhoenixNZ

You'll understand one day.

It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.

It may be when you're in the left seat and have to fly with these guys.

Yes, they know their theory and SOPs very well. No one I know has ever had issue with this. It's knowing when to apply this theory and use of SOPs which is the problem.

It's the lack of airmanship, the lack of piloting experience. It's all the small things which add up. Taxi lights on facing another aircraft at night. Strobes on entering a runway While another aircraft is in a flare passing. Blindly flying into a thunderstorm because ATC has not cleared left or right track miles. Reading the conditions, the way the air feels, the way it looks. That feeling deep down when you know something is not as it should be yet there is no indication to confirm it.

It's like comparing something made by a machine vs something handmade. A cadet is churned out by a machine, a traditional military/GA Pilot is hand crafted through operational experience. A pilot is a craftsman, and it takes years being handmade to call yourself one.

Is not something you can throw money at to attain. It's something you slowly become.

Once you are sitting in that airliner, you'll understand it. I promise you it will be all the more worthwhile.

PhoenixNZ

One serious gap in your knowledge they won’t teach you at Raybans and Epaulettes flight school.

Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.

To bastardise someone else's phrase, "Its not what can my union do for me, its what can I do for my..."

And to a few others out there: get out your dictionaries and learn the correct meaning of scab. Thank you.