Phoenix NZ

You actually started out OK but after that did yourself and all the other cadets no favours at all. :=

You are correct it is the company we should fighting on this cadet issue but what have chosen to ignore is the fact that we have been fighting hence the increase in YOUR T&C.

You talk about not flying with cadet. What is happening is that we can't refuse to fly with them so instead we fly and you will be allowed to move the flap and gear lever and maybe an odd radio call as long as you don't stuff that up.

I actually dont have a problem with what you are saying I have a problem with the ATTITUDE you are displaying. If you enter my flight deck with that attitude you will be going home and on the flexi line policy expect to live on closer to 40K and good luck with those sims.

PNZ .. Whats the demographic of your cadet course...?

Prima Facie this seems logical, doesnt it?

Phoenix, the problem with your logic is that the 17 year old driver is being repeatedly told by the older more experienced drivers that he shouldnt be doing what he is doing. And when the 17 year old has an accident BOTH the 17 year old and the guy who offered him the car EQUALLY culpable, because NEITHER listened to what they were told.

Remember my friend, your arse is in that aircraft too. Along with hundreds of punters, and plenty on the ground who need you to make it from point A to point B safely.

The guy who offered the car isn't necessaily in that car with you. So there is an excellent chance that this fella want to make some dough, and he isnt fussed about some risk assessment, he just wants the cash. You can see the conflicting interests, I'm sure.

So mate, listen to the wise people on this thread. Stop with this immature attitude that you are displaying. Get the experience up, earn the respect of your peers, and only then will you be able to do this job without being a danger to yourself and others.

Question:

Given that the cadets program in the UK has been going on for quite some time now, has there been any documented evidence that these cadets have been involved in any more incidents than a standard pilot has been?

Everyone is coming to the conclusion that cadets are worse pilots than existing/experienced ones but I'm just curious if this is in any way a proven fact or just an assumption that everyone is jumping onto because it supports their own point of view.

I'm not saying your wrong, logic would suggest that if you have more experience then you are less likely to have an incident, but is there anything out there that actually backs up your statements.

The other point I'll make is simply around the availability of jobs in the GA sector. I dont know about Australia but certainly in New Zealand they aren't exactly a dime a dozen. There need to be the jobs available first before one can actually get there.

I'm not 100% certain of going into a cadet program straight out of training. I can certainly see there is some benefit to GA flying for a year or two first. But when push comes to shove if the option is have no job or get into a cadet program, I know which one I'm going for.

I dont ignore that at all. I think its great that the unions have been able to get a good outcome. But regardless I dont think its right to be abusing people for taking what is a good job offer just because you dont yourself like that job offer because it MAY (and I stress the word MAY because to my knowledge no existing pilot has lost his/her job or had a reduction in their pay because of the cadet program) have a negative impact on you.

As I've said all along, I completely understand why existing pilots disliking cadet programs I can see where they are coming from. The existing pilots on the other hand make no such effort to understand the position of the cadets being offered these programs. They instead simply abuse and degrade them for simply doing what the cadets feel is their best option.

And in reality I would say that 95% of them if they were in the same positions when they started their flying careers, they would be signing up right along side me. Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training.

No, Basically Jetstar cadets have caused an absolute $hitfight, and if i was offered a job when I was in GA NO I would never have accepted it because $hit still smelt like $hit back then! I have never paid for any endorsement in my whole life and I have still worked out OK lol! (ie winner not loser!)

"Because what sort of person passes up double the pay and a chance to jump start their career when they are new out of training''


This is the reason the industry is attracting the wrong type of person. Not that long ago it was someone who was in love with the art of aviation that would do what they could to secure their first job and build up skills through a variety of different routes in aviation. Military, GA (charter/instructing) etc. You actually have to deal with people and get some people skills!

Remember, double a dollar is only 2 dollars, but it aint gonna pay the bills when your on that for the next 6-8 years of your life!

Just a side note, maybe you'll also rely on automation so much you won't know what the do when the ****e hits the fan - Air France sound familiar??

Get some skills first!!!!!:ok:

Pheonix, you raise some great points and I appreciate that you put in the time and effort to get those points across. Especially to a community that in general doesn't agree with you.

I've missed the ab-initio boat but if I can I will definitely try to get into an advanced cadet course.

No. There is no documented evidence. Wanna know why? Because it's not in the airline's interest to do the research. They'd look like dills if it came out that cadets in fact WERE involved in a greater number of heavy landings, Captains taking control, bank angle warnings, etc. No longer could they hide behind their bold statements about cadets being just as safe as everyone else. No longer could they base their recruitment plans on two arms, two legs, a pulse and a wad of cash.

The other issue of course is that they're simply considered a 'pilot' once checked out and so very little data is kept as to their background. It's all put down as 'total hours'.

I do hear of people citing 'research' that points to bad habits in skills of non cadets but I've yet to actually read that research. Strangely, that research tends to be quoted by purveyors of cadetships. However, we're not just talking about the ability to 'stick and rudder' an ILS to minima, any monkey can do that. It's about controlling the fear that comes with not much fuel and an aeroplane all over the place and THEN sticking the ILS that is the real trick. Of course, many pilots with lots of experience use that experience to avoid having to be 'aces' in the first place but at least they've seen it before for when it happens.

Lol. The naivety of youth. It's a proven fact that lack of experience leads to situations that require superior skills to get out of. It's a proven fact that sometimes superior skills aren't enough or the others supporting you don't have them. Air France proved that not long ago. So did Colgan before that. Heck, even the recent Safety digest shows what happens with a combination of poor training and poor discipline come together.

So arguing about whether it's an assumption or a fact may make you feel warm and fuzzy but for those of us who do this for a living year in, year out it really doesn't make much of a difference. There is NO substitute for experience and when you fly with someone who lacks it, you are going to have to be extra vigilant. That my friend, is a fact.

May I also point out after Kegs wise words that he was in fact a Qantas cadet (now a Qantas 767 Captain), so if anyone can give balance to the equation. It's him!

Of course the cadetship Keg went through is vastly different to what is being spun by the likes of oxford and co. I would have given my eye teeth to get into the Qantas cadetship of old.

Traditional cadetships I fully support and believe it adds a good mixture of cadet, GA and military to the Pilot mix. (having cadets as copilots however was quite painful on the Metro, but they were very enthusiastic and had a great ability to learn. These guys were also the cream of the crop who were selected, not the ones who had the money)

Surprisingly Qantas used to send their cadets to a regional airline (flying Saabs, Metros etc with operators such as Airnorth,Pearl, Macair, Skippers, Brindabella) to get a few years experience before letting them in the back seat of a longhaul jet for a few more.

Go figure!

Cheers

This is EXACTLY my point. Cadets are simply doing whatever they can to get their first jobs in the industry that they want to work in.

Simple reality is that GA jobs in NZ are hard to come by. Growth in the aviation industry is all in the airlines, no one hears about Eagle, Mt Cook or Great Barrier Air doing massive expansions.

The jobs are in the airlines. The paths to those jobs is through cadetships. And yet cadets are getting **** on because of it. How is that fair?

I agree, if these incidents are happening then the airlines aren't likely to want to publicise it. But what about the unions. The people who are actually speaking to the pilots being affected. Have none of them done any sort of research, even if its just based on anecdotal evidence, into issues around cadets performance. Surely it would give their case against the airlines much much more weight.

As I'm fairly new to aviation I'm unsure the difference between the "traditional" cadet programs and the ones of today. Any chance of highlighting the main differences?
I can assure you that none of the six of us doing the current course we are on are ones who have money. We have all taken on student loans and are living it rough on student allowances to get to where we want to be in aviation.

I can also assure you that we are all very enthusiastic to learn and are all more than capable of being great pilots. None of us are getting into this on just a whim because we think it would be fun to fly a fancy jet.

Again this all comes down to necessity for a large part. If the only option in town (or even in the country) is to be a cadet so that we can make a career out of flying, how are we being sellouts or scabs etc etc for doing so. Its not like we have much other choice.

The reason they are not recruiting is because people like you are jumping the line.

Guys used to leave the regionals for an airline gig. Why would they leave now to take a pay cut and pay 40k for an A320 rating?

The only ones interested in these schemes are cadets and DEC who are coming home after making their money in the sandpit.

Everything was paid for. In Qantas' case, the cadet paid for their CPL/MECIR and were looked after from there (regional placement, seniority number, mainline slot after 2-3 years of regional placement).

Now think about how you're going to pay that loan off (circa 100k) on 48k and buy a house, while supporting the wife and kids. You can't.....Hell I struggle on twice that.

You will never become a great Pilot. You may become a great systems manager. You cannot become a great Pilot flying an airbus all day on autopilot while the Captain takes the tricky sectors and you never make a decision.

In an Airbus you just point the stick where you want it to go, and it will fly there. It does not take a great Pilot to do this. It takes a great Pilot to rescue it when the computer ****s itself (Air France cadet at the controls vs Qantas crew over learmonth).

Because we have no other options currently. Are you suggesting we just sit around for a few years on an unemployment benefit just so that we can hope that it will open some jobs in the regionals?

Which sounds very very similar to how the cadet schemes will now work (in Aus at least) with the new contract. The main difference being that they are going directly to mainline rather than doing the regionals.

Then your doing something wrong? I'm sorry but anyone who cant manage on $48k has some serious budgetting issues going on. Also I have no intention of staying on 48k for my entire career. I'm just happy to accept it right now while I build the hours and experience I need to move onto something better. Most likely that will be in the sandpit but that doesn't cause me any great concern. Like most jobs you have to balance money with lifestyle.

And thats different to the current drivers who have spent the last 10 years doing the same thing how? Experience is only relevant if you keep it updated. Just because 10 years ago you were able to do a glide approach in your broken down plane doesn't mean you can do the same today if you haven't had to keep doing the same thing over the years to keep the skills active.

I have been following this thread since the beginning & have been trying to remain objective as I read & think about everyone's point of view. I have stayed out of the debate as it can be a very emotive topic & I didn't have much to add that hadn't already been said by parties on both sides of the fence.

However, I do have to disagree with the following -

I can still perform skills I learnt years ago, as I am sure most people can. I may not be as good at them, but I can still perform them to a satisfactory standard.

Unlike those who never learnt the skill in the first place. That is one of the differences between skills & knowledge.

And -

Experience doesn't get 'updated' - it just is. Any 'updating' is new experience, which is added to the experience pool the individual already has. It is knowledge, once again, that needs to be constantly updated.

Just shot himself in the foot!

At least GA is starting to recover to decent salaries now these wannabes hit the airlines instead of raping GA.

Hell you can earn more living in Alice flying a piston twin than you can flying A320s for Jetstar NZ.

Go Figure?

If I can find a good GA job over the ditch then thats cool. Again, the main reason I'm going for the cadets program is simply a lack of options.

My point all along has never been that the cadet programs are the best things for aviation. Simply that its unfair to abuse the cadets for taking up one of the only options currently around for them.

Pheonix
I agree nobody should be abusing the cadets, play the man not the ball.
We should be and are fighting the company on the issue but I need to tell you Pheonix all you posts are doing is bringing the focus back to the ball.:ugh:

Old versus new cadet programs that is where the problem is
Old- With established reputable airline with a rigourous C&T system where properly screened and suitable candidates are accepted, get trained properly, get experience(industry placement), learn their craft like a sponge from the third seat.:ok:

New- With a low cost airline with no resources available(they cost too much) with a C&T system under pressure and relatively inexperienced churning out ANYONE with a cheque book and a pulse to sit in the RHS and put with relatively inexperienced, under resourced, overworked, disengaged Captains whose only priority is to ensure the cadet doesn't f%^k up (which the company would hide anyway because the cadets are such a good product) an try to save his job (because we all know who the fall guy will be).:mad:

That is the problem, DO YOU GET IT YET :rolleyes:

I always understood the pilots problem toolish. The pilots on the other hand never seem to understand the cadets problem.

$100k debt with very few job prospects, the only opportunities are in jobs where established people will hate you even though your only doing the best you can to be the best that you can be in the industry you want to be in.

The grass isn't much greener on this side of the fence.

Straw man alert
 

Bzzz. Thank you for playing. It's NOT 'one of the only options currently around for them' at all. The 'abuse' that you reckon it is- which it's not- is people who have been around for a while trying to tell you that it's NOT the only option around. There are other, better options that ultimately will serve you more effectively in the medium to long term.

So you're wrong on two counts.
1. It's not the only option
2. You're not being abused, you're being given information that you don't agree with and don't want to see. That you consider it abuse would cause me concern as to how effectively you can operate in a multi crew situation because there are going to be many times in your career that you get told that you're wrong and operating on flawed assumption regarding a particular thing. If you're as thin skinned on the flight deck as you are on PPRUNE then you're not going to have a particularly enjoyable career.

Oh Puh-lease. Cry me a freaking river. You don't think some of us haven't started our careers carrying debts? You don't think some of us haven't started out careers with low experience levels? You really are deluding yourself. Take the blinkers off.

No skills left after 10 years or so? Read Sullenbergers book? If you haven't, I suggest strongly that you do. That's what experience AND training get you.

PNZ, I have been sitting here on the by-lines watching the development of this thread for some time now. It is plain that you need some advice here on the nature of the industry and how it works. As you are at the 'pre-cadet' phase of your career, you have no industry experience on which to back up your career decisions. This forum can provide some free advice to you from many who have been in the industry a long time. Whether you take it or not is up to you.

There are some who will hold it against you personally for taking a cadetship. I personally wont because I am forgiving and understand that the lure of a jet job is overwhelming to those who aspire to fly. I was there once, too. However, in my career (21 years in airlines, 5 years in GA and 4 years private flying before that), I have never paid for a heavy aircraft type rating (3 Fokker and 4 Boeing). What I and other Training and Check staff wont forgive is professional inability.

I have seen many who have gained employment at VB and J*who did pay for their type rating. I dont hold that against them. The fact that I did not tick the box on the on-line employment forms that said 'I am prepared to pay for my own type rating prior to employment.'. meant that I did not ever recieve the nice e-mail from J* or Virgin Blue requesting my presence for an interview. However, there are plenty of employers who recognise that they need to pay for quality staff, such as Vaustralia where I now work on the B777 (type rating supplied by company and salary above that of a comparable position at J*). You can find these emplyers, too, but you will need some experience to justify your employment by them. Go and get it in GA.

My objection to the J* cadetship is twofold. Firstly, it is a really, very bad deal. The contract is all in the employers favour at you can so easily be put to a profound financial and career disadvantage. You will be literally selling your soul to buy into this. I can see how easily this can end in bankrupcy for anyone who signs up for this and in circumstances that are through no fault of their own whatsoever(I have already given advice to a young friend of my daughter regarding this - he has just been accepted into the ADF :ok:).

The second objection is the quality of the training. Traditional cadetships have the employer paying for the training. As they needed a high quality product at the end, they subjected candidates to rigourous assement prior to selection of cadet pilots. Examples of this are BOAC/BA, BEA, Lufthansa, Vietnam Airlines. QF, RAAF, USN, JAL etc etc. In each instance, the successful candidate was typically a straight 'A' student, 120+ IQ, demonstrated teamwork skills, athletic and healthy, psychometric and cognitive skills in the top 3%. In each case, cadets either spent years as a SO or go on a hands on type aeroplane where stick-and-rudder skills are honed. These organisations got the best staff because they were willing to pay for it. The current employment paradigim is that if you have money, you can buy a job. The primary implication of here is that of a latent safey threat. To quote E.K. Gahn's 'Fate is the Hunter' - "in this game, we play for keeps". Our operating environment is intollerant of any incapacity, inability or neglect. We need the right people with the right attitudes and the right skills.

There is no fast track to this last attribute of skills. They come with an amalgam of time, experience and personal application. You will learn more in a GA environment than you will taking a 'crash' course in being an airline pilot. You will be better paid for it, too. Furthermore you will have greater career flexibility should there be an industrial upheaval that puts you out in the street (and I would say that on historical grounds that there is a VERY good chance that this will happen at some stage in your career).

I can see how tempting the J* cadetship appears, but the contract sucks. You have to look at any employment scenario as a business deal. And this one stinks to high heaven! The fault isn't with you, it's with the emplyers who make demands that pilots take the financial burden for training. It is a way to subsidise the airline's operation. Hopefully, the rest of the industry will follow the example set by the VA B777 long haul operation and pay for rating will become a thing of the past.

Phoenix

There is not much more that i can add by way of advice that hasn't already been proffered by many pilots with years and years of experience in the game. What I will say is listen, you are not being abused.That would be very easy to do given the current highly charged and emotive atmosphere that we are currently experiencing within the QF Group.

I do empathise with you to a degree and you have expressed and argued your stance on this board with a certain amount of maturity which implies to me you are a reasonably imtelligent bloke. Nobody wants to stand in your way of chasing a career in aviation. But in my opinion you (and other JQ cadets) are being used as pawns by a despicable management group who after they have finished with you will toss you aside like yesterdays rubbish.

You simply cannot trust them or believe that they are interested in your career. You are being used to undermine Pilots T & C's I promise you that is the case.

There was an earlier poster who used the saying "short termitis" and you should really consider this. Do you want to be a good pilot or a factory made robot? What if you get to Jetstar and suddenly you find out that you are not cut out for the lifestyle, **** money or worse still Jetstar doesn't like you. To bad you have gone all in on your first hand, and that could hurt.

My nephew attends a private school here in Sydney in Year 11, Jetstar have been at every careers day pushing hard, much to my nephews dissapointment I have given him and his parents the same advice. Like you it is very difficult to convince him this is not the right way forward for him.

Mate I know it is a bugger of a place to be in and all I ask of you is to rather than dismiss the advice from very very experienced aviation professionals, listen, research, research some more and make a decision based on reality rather than emotion or excitement at flying a jet.

As has been said on here many times before if you really want it and are prepared to sacrifice, work hard and develop your skills as a pilot you will make it. Life wasn't meant to be easy and I know from my own experience being an airline pilot wasn't meant to be easy.

@Keg

Cadets have repeatedly earlier in this thread been referred to as scabs, sellouts and told they only get what they deserve if something goes wrong. Thats being abused. Thats what I object to.

I've personally been referred to as being HR or management, which in the context of this discussion is certainly not meant as a term of endearment. All because I have a different perspective/point of view than the others.

@Anthill and adsyj

Thanks for your well thought out and articulated posts. I'm by no means going into any programs such as the cadet program with blinders on. Ideally I'd love to find a good GA job flying a twin for two years before I start moving into a more airline based environment because I do think there is benefit to starting smaller and moving upwards.

It will all at the end of the day be based on whats available. I'm yet to find any website that advertises NZ pilot jobs so either there just aren't any available or they recruit through other means. If your aware of any I'd love a link.

Ultimately I'd rather be a JQ cadet than unemployed and not flying for a year waiting for a GA job to come around.

Cheers
Phoenix

You really have not done your research.

You will not be let anywhere near a piston twin until you have a least a 1000 hours of experience under your belt. This will take a minimum of two years to achieve.

Thinking back to myself as a green CPL it was a huge learning curve to operate a single engine aircraft as a charter Pilot. The amount of stuff ups and errors of judgement was quite scary looking back with hindsight.

I'd hate to be doing that with a couple of hundred soul behind me.....

The issue still comes back to the availability of jobs. As you pointed out GG cadet schemes mean less of those GA jobs being available. If the jobs aren't there, how do you get them to start out with.

Its a bit unreasonable to expect cadets to be unemployed waiting for a job when there is one in the industry that they can actually get into.

I think the new definition of ironic is: "Jetstar pilots complaining about someone undercutting their job and profession."


The Don

There is lots of entry level jobs.

Most of your bros end up on the mainland doing the annual Mecca to northern Australia. Most get jobs and lots of experience.

GG - Any good website to keep an eye on for these jobs?

I've found Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs however I'm yet to find a single job on there thats suitable for a 250 hour CPL unless they have an instructor rating.

I got my first twin job on a PA31 with only 370 hours total time, so it does vary. In fact, it was my first flying job ever. That was back in the mid 80's though, and things may have changed somewhat now.

PhoenixNZ, you will probably have to move to OZ to get a GA job, if you decide to change direction & go that way. Job's in NZ are few & far between. They always have been & probably always will be.

www.afap.org.au

Do a search on pprune for a thread called information regarding the top end. Lots of info and hopefully it will change your life.

When you sign up to be a pilot, you are signing up for a lifestyle with the good and the bad.

It was never going to be easy and there are no shortcuts without huge catches. Going the GA route you can pick your airline and take your skills where they are rewarded and remunerated accordingly (just like airline management do shock horror!)

Basically that means you are just too lazy to put in the hard work and lack any persistence.

You haven't even got the patience to wait only 1 year and do something else such as stack shelves in Coles whilst waiting for that GA job ?

How about waiting for up to 5 years, like some people have done ? :eek:

But persistence and hard work pays off, obviously you lack these qualities and you are just looking for a quick short cut to the top.

Management are exploiting people like you to bring down the terms and conditions for the whole industry. Thanks mate.

To be honest, GA flying is some of the best flying you will ever do and its a pity you will miss out on it. If only GA paid as much as the airlines did, many airline pilots would probably go back to it :(

You won't find a job sitting at home clicking away at a computer. Buy an old beaten station wagon (the best a GA pilot can afford), pack all your belongings in the back and make the well trodden pilgrmage out bush without any guarantee of success. A big risk but most land on their feet eventually.

This is all part of the fun actually and you will back on it one day with very fond memories, though it might not seem like fun at the time.

I have no issue with traditional cadetships per-se, nor do I believe in GA for GA's sake; But for anyone to justify a specious self funded cadetship as being their only option conveys an image of lazyness and naivety.

I've met lots of self funded cadets over the years in a few different countries and on a few different aircraft types. Every one of them to a tee thought they'd found a genious method of climbing that slippery pole faster than the the sucker who started in GA. Every one of them had a master plan to get some quick time and bugger off to greener pastures. Quite a few ended up unemployed for a number of reasons (economic downturn, company restructure, political expedience, pissed off the wrong guy) And every one of those to a tee discovered the unempoyability that comes with that awesome endorsement that has to be paid off, low TT and no Command time. A few reconciled themselves to a career in the right hand seat. I recall gaining a command over one such individual and I'll never forget the look on the guys face after the relevant management pilot explained to him (slowly) that the company had neither the spare resources (Training Captain) nor the inclination at that time to give him the required ICUS. Bitter? you bet. But he had nowhere to go. He'd screwed himself with a greasy pole cadetship.

Phoenix,
You will find it very difficult to get a job with less than 250hrs by surfing the net and waiting for the job to come to you.

You will need to get off your arse, and cold call - maybe even travel around the country and knock on doors to find that job.

If you're not prepared to put in some hard work now as a newbie - you'll never make it in an airline.

Sorry, but that's the reality of the industry.

PNZ
You're correct on both the lack of a website and recruiting through other means but wrong when you assume there are no jobs out there.

There are quite a few jobs out there in NZ, perhaps not as many as OZ or in some cases as well paid as Oz but they're there. There is no website and very rarely is there ever any adverts in other media. The fact you lament the lack of a website advertising jobs in New Zealand demonstrates your lack of understanding of the industry.

Why is there no website? Simple the jobs are filled by keen pilots and pilotesses who get out there and get in front of prospective employers. In many cases their first job is where they learned to fly. Employers don't need to advertise, most GA jobs are fill by word of mouth.

Unfortunately for the likes of yourself training at CTC, since their focus is entirely airline orientated, you do not get exposed to the avenues that GA can offer and how and where to find these jobs.

As Tidbinbilla stated,
By the way, the whole CPL MEIR package can be done for a fair bit less than $100,000 at most places. Is that what CTC charge?

Looxury! Back in MY day, we had to wait 10 years to even get allowed in the door of a hangar to sweep, let alone a full blown charter office! Of course, that was AFTER getting up at 2am, cleaning the lake that we lived in, having a breakfast of cold gravel and walking 10miles with no shoes to get to the front door of said hangar!

/end monty python

Sorry! Just had to sneak that one in, do continue with the excellent debate over cadets.

Just to stay on topic- Phoenix- PLEASE listen to the advice on here. Although it sounds harsh, most people on here ACTUALLY have your best interests in mind when posting advice.

Pheonix, I had 400+ hours by the time I got my CPL. I flew the tug at a gliding club and also a C206 at a skydiving club on a PPL. I got my first job at Moorrabin with a bare CPL - no instrument or instuctor rating. I had 600 hrs before the Boss let me fly the Seneca :O.

Mate, be inventive and get creative, you will find a way, as we all did. Like Pyscho Joe, I have met guys who did the CPL and jet TR only to find they were up the River Merde' sans paddle when a downturn came and they got laid off: no command time and limited operational experience means no portability of qualifications. In this industry, you HAVE to be able to be portable. You can expect to move many times during your career.

My additional advice to anyone in the industry these days (at any level) is DO NOT CARRY A LARGE DEBT :suspect:

Chad, in my day, you needed 2000 hrs to be allowed to WASH the Kingair :8..

...and you had to grovel to do that!

Anyone have any thoughts on the Qlink cadets program?

Not in QLink so those that are may hold a different opinion but
a) QLink still pays for your type rating and fronts up most of the cost of the traineeship (you salary sacrafice it back)
b) You are 100% guaranteed to be put on the EBA
c) It doesn't seem to be totally replacing direct entry

Read the forums, there is a lot less bitching about it than Jetstar, I assume for the above reasons!

Good onya Phoenix

Look at everything and make direct comparisons. Mate it will happen if you make it happen.

Good luck:ok:

PhoenixNZ,


If you want to go for a cadetship then go for it.

I dont agree with what the airlines are doing but I do understand how people can be 'lured' into cadetships.
Being an "Airline Pilot" is a really 'cool' job......or so it seems. And kids can be fast tracked into it these days. Sure the pay is crap but it usually doesnt matter because these 19 years olds are usually still living with Mum and Dad. If they have to move, they'll flat with 3 other blokes and have a great time!!!

But it's only when you get into your late 20's - early 30's that you dont want to live with 3 other guys in a party house anymore, but you want to settle down, buy a house etc; you pull out the calculator and it tells you that you cant do any of that...


PhoenixNZ, when I was your age (Im assuming your around 14.....15??), I would have gone for a cadetship if they existed....but they didnt so I went out bush and spent time eating flies and experiencing the "stink"....and I ended up in an airline anyway. Looking back on it now (it was only a couple of years ago), I am glad that I did time in GA because it taught me skills and gave me confidence that I can handle myself in scary situations. Hopefully I never need to utilise that confidence ever again...but I know that I have it.
These are things that you probably wont experience as a cadet pilot.....until many years later when the bars on your shoulders stand for "Its All Your Fault" - and you have a 200hr fellow next to you......and then you are both going into unchartered waters togather. Now thats scary stuff!!!!

You complain that there are limited options out there.....not true. There are many opportunties out there, you just need to go looking for them. There are plenty of kiwis that have come over to Oz, got a car and headed up north, and they all found jobs....its not hard.


Over the last few days you must have typed thousands of word into this thread. Instead of spending hours upon hours on this forum, I suggest that you spend that time studying for a cadet interview or starting to ring operators around the place, instead of winding these old buggers up.



Eternity.

@Eternity

Your about 10-11 years off my age there mate. Married with two children is kind of hard when your 15 lol.

Going bush as you put it is all well and good when your single and have no other real responsibilities but its unfortunately not the same when you have a family to look after. Its unfair on my family to drag them from place to place searching for a job.

Now one could say that I should have done this earlier, studying to be a commercial pilot that is, and thats well and good. No one however knows my personal circumstances so aren't really in a position to comment on that. I could also have skipped doing it all together but its never to late to pursue ones dreams.

I'm more than happy to do the hard yards to get into a job but I will never do something thats going to put my family in undue hardship just for the sake of posterity.

I've got another year left in my training so these aren't decisions I'm faced with immediately. Who knows, a year is a long time and changes to cadet programs may well either make them less attractive or alternately change them so they are more suited to everyone in the industry.

My points in this discussion were never about whether or not the cadet programs are good or bad or otherwise. Its always been about making sure the blame goes in the wrong place so that those 19-20 year olds who are cadets aren't getting **** on by other pilots for no justifiable reason.

As I've said (repeatedly) blame the program and those who run it. Dont blame those who join up when they believe its their best option.