Virgin Blue A330 Jobs
 

The Australian VB A330 adverts:

Some of us here in DXB are wondering whether this is too good to be true ?? :confused:

EK deserve everything they get.

Typical VB management. Let's hire externally (including mates) instead of training up own guys/gals first :hmm:

Any mention of $$$ or just the usual, see how much interest there is and how desperate they are and offer individual contracts...............

You took the words right out of my mouth Servo:p

Perhaps the commercial desire to kick the opposition in the guts by poaching crew over-rides other issues. A half decent package would cripple the Jetstar operation

You will surely benefit in the longer term.

no line positions, so I don't see this bringing about a "mass exodus" from EK. Even if every position was filled from Dubai, Emirates would barely notice.

if they can introduce 21 E Jets without employing any experienced E Jet drivers, how many external hires are needed to introduce a small A330 fleet?

So what happened to all that talk of pilot unity after the AIPA meeting on the 23rd. Some people need to have a look at themselves.:ugh:

Keith do you mean not applying to VB for the A330 so that the company is encouraged to look in house for experienced crew and to offer decent $$$$ or do you mean we should open the flood gates so anyone that is keen to get home, fly a bigger aircraft (insert self fullfilling desire here thus screwing over others in the industry) apply??

Same tactics that were employed with the 777 and Jetstar want to use for employing cheap overseas labour.

Unity is about reversing the trend of crap T&C's and ensuring jobs for Australian pilots here in Australia!

What else gets me, in the same "ad" VB is actively trying to recruit EXTERNALLY, direct entry Senior Base Pilots, where experience on 737NG, EMB190/170 and A330 is "highly regarded".

What ever happened to internal positions? :*

My understanding is that 'it is intended' that most of the positions will be filled by Virgin Blue domestic pilots. Obviously any A330 trainers/checkers that can't be sourced from VB (the group?) will have to be externally recruited.

There is no indication that the A330 terms and conditions will be under the current VB EBA. Can VB hire A330 pilots under individual contracts whilst being employed by VB (ie have B737/Emb on EBA and A330 on individual contracts?)

The old saying, "If it looks too good to be true, it usually is". The jobs have also been advertised internally. Remains to be seen whether anyone from internal positions is willing to give it a go. I have spoken to several who are interested, both rated and non rated.
There is no widebody provision in the current EBA. So they can pretty much pay as they like. There has been no word on possible remuneration as yet. "Caveat Emptor"

Exactly PM how do you "apply" for a position when you dont know exactly what your are applying for and conditions to be in place.

Hopefully the conditions will be in line with industry standards and internal applicants are successful. I understand that not ALL positions can/will be filled internally for various reasons, I just dont want that to be used as an excuse to offer poor conditions etc.

Dear Colleagues

There is a lot of truth to the opportunities at VB for 330 qualified checkers or trainers. This will be a one off opportunity to leave the sandpit and come home on about half the take home pay you get in the desert.

Make no mistake about it, there will not be a second bite at this. As was the case with VA, if you do not come in the first group of DEC's, there will not be another opportunity. After the initial start up phase, it seems likely that all future 330 pilots will be sourced internally, as was the case with the 777.

What I would like to impress upon anyone considering this opportunity is, don't make the same mistake the 777 drivers did. That mistake was not talking to the VB pilots, or more specifically the AFAP (the only union at the time) before accepting their contracts. The end result of that is the appalling contract VA 777 drivers now have.

It is widely accepted amongst the pilot group and the unions that DEC's are a necessity to introduce the 330, so there should be no animosity toward any DEC's who choose to have a crack at the positions. In fact, on the contrary, current pilots at both VB and VA have vested interest in doing whatever they can to ensure incoming DEC's get paid as much as possible. Any new benchmark salaries will probably have a flow on effect to VB and VA pilots.

VA pilots are currently in EBA talks, and VB pilots will be commencing EBA talks in the coming 12 months, so the A330 conditions are of utmost relevance.

At present, the likely strategy the company will employ is to try and get 330 DEC's to accept conditions similar to the VA 777 pilots. If they can do this, they will then use that as a benchmark to attack VB pilots conditions at the next EBA, and VA pilots will be able to kiss any improved conditions good bye.

All of the ex EK 777 pilots are members of VIPA, and there are probably many familiar names amongst the AFAP members. Do yourselves and all other pilots a favour and get in touch with someone in either of the unions before you accept any offers.

I cannot overstate how crucial this will be. Anyone who accepts conditions that are less than current VB conditions will most likely be loudly and publicly condemned, and is destined to have a fairly miserable time at work.

Anyone who does the harder thing and gets in contact with current VB or VA pilots and does their bit to ensure the conditions here are not further eroded will be welcomed into the fold.

In closing, I would not expect anyone to fall on their sword and throw away the opportunity to return to Oz, just on principle. The message i am trying to convey is that there is a good bunch of blokes back here who understand that we need the experience to kick off the A330, but we want to do whatever can be done to ensure that DEC's are not used as a weapon to further erode conditions in OZ.

Welcome to VIPA
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

Bad time to cheese 600 73 drivers off. Might find a few problems at EBA time.

Recommend employing internally on a commensurate seat to dollars package to avoid an absolute disaster at EBA/new brand launch time.

Don't fall into the silly Swift Godfrey act of offering the lowest conditions in the world and filling 98% of positions with externals.

My bolding. 330 doing regional international flying out of Aus on sukky PB T & Cs.:\

There are numerous ex EK A330/340 drivers (with Jetstar and Tiger) already in OZ who may look at this - but I'd be a bit concerned as to the T & C's until someone comes up with actual dollar numbers.:(

I suspect what you would do is apply for the position then if they offer it to you have a look at the contract and decide whether or not you want to sign on the dotted line. If you don't like the conditions, don't sign. I know, pure genius! :ugh:

Well spotted slice:yuk:

According to what Ive read they are only seeking internal applicants at this stage.

This ad rings alarm bells of caution.

Unknown Terms and Conditions?

The world is standing at the precipice of a crippling pilot shortage (for qualified, experienced pilots).

The next year, two years will inevitably see many more jobs such as these.

VB alone will expand considerably - more than internal crewing can allow. JQ are getting what, 15 plus 787's etc? - so they will need to better the deal for current pilots and to employ experienced Australian-trained/licenced pilots. Tiger will really have to get its act together if it plans to survive. Overseas airlines are desperate. EK alone needs 750 pilots in 18m just for new orders, not even to replace pilots leaving for greener pastures. Then there's Ethihad, Qatar, Korean, Air China and many new freight airlines desperate for rated/non-rated guys and this is the tip of the iceberg - it has soaked-up what was a pool of qualified pilots.

Already in Oz there are better alternatives for A330 pilots (e: o/s airline basing in Australia, A$15k/m+ after tax, 16-18 days/m off).

In the initial stages of the V Australia 777 operation Captains were to get $215k (pre tax) but when flooded with applicants this dropped to I think $175k/yr - for a Boeing 777 Captain:rolleyes:because they could.

This ad implies exactly the same thing will happen - my advice would be proceed with real caution.

At last the worm is turning for professional pilots, there is increasingly no need to accept second best.

Be very very careful guys.

Let me pose a very real possibility to you.

1. You leave a well paid job to come home to fly the 330 in OZ
2. VB's 330's are a stop gap until 787's are available which is rumoured to be the case
3. The 330's are sent back and you find your self as an F/O on the Ejet on 100k per year

Why would any sane person leave a secure job to join an organisation which may not be around in 2 years. The only upside it will probably be on better conditions than the woeful ones that the VA crews are enduring ( self induced mind you ). Do yourself a favour and block out any nostalgic thoughts of returning home.It isn't that good and definately not worth giving up a well paying long term job.

Servo, I agree, but that's what the VA guys did.......Listen to the sqealing now.
VBPCGUY, You don't advertise internally via The Australian.

Grey Nomad, Where do you get 2 years from?

Just my best guess really. With VA bleeding the cash reserves and with no real prospect for a change in their circumstances,the bottom line doesn't look too good.VB have the might of QF, J* and Tiger continually gnawing away at their market share. Most of the remaining money in the bank will be consumed setting up the 330's and the introduction of the new brand. A new business class including uniforms,lounges,livery will not come cheap. The death knell will come when the Labor government approves SQ to fly across the pacific.VB may very well survive,although I believe in a much smaller version with PB style pay and conditions. Don't get me wrong I think JB had little choice than proceed
on his present path, unfortunately their are far too many forces acting which are beyond his control.

Does anybody else see any strange parallels between John Borghetti with Virgin Blue and another ex senior QF manager (Gary Toomey with Ansett) who missed out on the top job about 10 years ago?


Both seem to have walked out of QF and into complete disasters at the major competing carrier.


Certainly hope Borghetti and Virgin don't go the same way as Toomey and Ansett.....

Don't forget that Toomey had an accomplice in Jensen.

Good luck to all in the future of VB et al.

halas

VB330
 

G'day,

Any of you guys know when VB will start recruiting DEC on the 330?????

The rife negativity never ceases to amaze me here. When BG was at the helm VB wasn't going to last two years because of....yada, yada, yada. Two years passed and now JB is at the helm and it's not going to last two years...:rolleyes:

The only parallels I see are the people on here making the same negative comments over and over again and being proven wrong. JB is not Toomey and VB is not Ansett, moreover 10yrs have come and gone inbetween and there is now a different aviation environment than there once was. :bored:

But of course the armchair experts here would know better than an airline manager how to run an airline. :oh: I wonder why then they are armchair experts and not in fact in charge of an airline? :mad:

virtual_dude, I agree but ejet FO on 100k, try about 25-30k less, thats the current :*

Not quite, current is 81-96K, with allowances you might scrape 100...

Did any of you ever expect anything better from the sort of company that has the culture to expect interview candidates continue their interview/sim and be at the top of their game while their wife has just gone into early labour?

Serious ameteurism, especially the "so called" ML Training Captain.:=

At least your HR had the balls to apologise for his actions, well after the incident in May....

Let's not forget only 2 aircraft - total crew required 20, maybe 24 tops!

10 captains - 2 checkers, maybe 3 trainers, leaves 5 commands for the internals.

Ops Norm, sorry to hear that sort of thing happened. I don't always agree with the way things are run but I have always found them accommodating when it comes to personal issues / sick family etc. Back to the thread.... Outsiders, I would consult the V.B. unions prior to accepting anything. It would be a sad day to see the terms and conditions go the way of the 777 where triple 7 skippers are on less than the 73. Even if you are financially secure think of the industry as a whole and your future colleagues. By all means accept a job if it is offered but allow a decent pay scale to be negotiated first.

"The world is standing at the precipice of a crippling pilot shortage (for qualified, experienced pilots)".

And so it has been for more than thirty years. I started flying back in the 70's, and that was the pitch being used then. I'm surprised that supposedly intelligent people are still falling for the line in 2010!!

I clearly remember when people like the long departed Kaptin M, were advocating boycotting of Jetstar to get the salaries increased. Is that ******** living in a fantasy world? Is any pilot living in a fantasy world?? The sooner you get it through your apparently thick skulls that management would prefer to park aircraft than to pay pilots more, the sooner you will be living in the current industrial world.

Trying to put the frighteners into EK (and other companies') pilots so that they won't come here and take 'our' jobs is worse than sticking your heads in the sand; it's sticking your heads up your butts.

Airline managements have no qualms about trying to reduce pilots' incomes below that of base grade clerks. Get that, and don't forget it. If you want to continue flying, you either accept it or be continually discontented. You can try to change it, but more often than not you'll be disappointed and frustrated.

There is no shortage of wannabe pilots. The airlines just promote whoever they have available and so far they've got away with it. When they no longer get away with it, then, and only then, will they adopt a different strategy.

I wish you luck in your endeavours

Ops normal,

One of the failings of flight ops management is their lack of psychic ability.

If you don't tell the right people then they can't do anything about it, I do not believe that any of the vb managers, had they known the circumstances, would expect anyone to continue with the interview/sim.

Airbornesoon..I agree with you regards the continual negativity expressed on this website and can't comment on the future of VB..BUT...I think the regard with which airline management are held in Australia is misplaced.
We as a group have chosen to pursue a career in aviation and I assume most of the posters here are employed by an airline, we have reached the top job in our chosen career. JB and BG and Darth chose management as their career, they have reached the top, but it doesn't make them right.The lack of 777 in QF colours stands out from my side, also the failed APA bid for QF.
BG did agreat job setting up his thing, but maybe he lost sight of the LCC model?? I don't know or wish to commebt, but to dismiss posters on this site because they are not airline managers is to devalue their opinions and input. Just as being a pilot is not rocket science, as with airline managing. Once again from a QF/JQ point of view, all you need to be able to do is cut costs, and seemingly pay no attention to increasing revenue.
Time for a revolution where nerds who hang out in offices as accountants and lawyers and run airlines were replaced with people that actually know what an airline is.I can still remembre when QF was run by a pilot!!
Godfrey Borghetti Joyce et al...they are not all knowing gods and I wish the public and press would wake up to the modern day scam that is management.

I know I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I vaguely remember reading that the reason VB got away with paying the E-170/190 drivers less than the B737 drivers in the current EBA, was because they agreed to paying more for a larger type.

If so, does that mean that there is already provision for more pay for the A330? Unless that was specifically for the B777 & by using another type (A330) they get around that provision, just as they got around it with the B777 by forming a new company.

Current EBA only has B737 and Embraer, adding another type will require a change.

There no need to hire any external pilots full time at all. Look at the Ejet, all done in house with the help of Embraer pilots and done on time with no safety issues. Look at QF when they introduced the A330, done in house with the help of Airbus, some goes for the A380. There are heaps of internal pilots who could fill any of the advertised positions. If DJ approached Airbus, I'm sure they would provide pilots (at a cost) for the start up period.

Have a look at Rishworth, PARC etc they are always adverting for trainers and checkies on short term contracts (ie 3 months) to help airlines around the world when they introduce a new type. If DJ can't get help from Airbus then they should look at using one of these contract companies, that way, once the start phase is over the jobs go to current DJ pilots.

This issue of employing direct entry positions may have been avoided if the pilot group stuck together 10 months ago when the company employed the 2 DEC onto the Ejet. Every single FO, both Ejet and 737 should have lodged a Grievance against the company, however in the end only about 40 did and then after one or two phone calls from managment, most withdrew and only 6 pilots were willing to stick with it and take the company to court (case still pending).

So here we are 10 months done the track and the company is pushing the issue again and they know that the pilot group is not strong enough to put up a fight:ugh:

Kerry Packer had a favourite expression. It was:

He who has the gold makes the rules.

That's something we, as employees, should never forget. I'm not suggesting that the boss is always, or even often, right, but he's the one who has risked capital to build a business.

When the pilots' association has sufficient funds to buy a couple of aircraft and offer jobs at great pay rates, then you have an alternative. Until then you can do whatever you want to improve conditions, but frequently you will be disillusioned.

You cannot rely on pilots from other companies, overseas, or the moon, to boycott in an attempt to improve conditions.

I'm sorry that I,nearing retirement, have to be the one to give a reality check. I've been through the mill, and know that this is the new order in industrial relations.......... unfortunately.

GAFA,

Those 2 DEC's on the E -jet have not flown it since their contracts ended in July.