Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors
A line from another post prompted me to start this thread.
They are currently not allowed to fly domestic sectors under Australian workplace laws. There are overseas based flight attendants (Singaporean and Thai) that operate on Australian domestic sectors without any work visas. This is how it works. Aircraft A operates SIN-DRW as an international sector with overseas based flight attendants. On arrival in DRW, the tech crew go home, all passengers, cabin crew and baggage get off the A/C, clear customs and immigration, recheck bags, go back through security and assemble in the DOMESTIC boarding lounge. The passengers are joined by additional DOMESTIC passengers, board an aircraft (A, B or C) and the overseas flight attendants operate to MEL, BNE or CNS. Arriving at the DOMESTIC terminal. There isn’t a single thing international about this flight. They call it an international TAG sector, but the tech crew have changed, there are no customs or immigration duties to be carried out, the aircraft may have changed, they have sold additional domestic tickets, and the operate to and from the domestic terminals. Immigration know this is happening. The crew clear immigration in DRW, OPERATE to MEL or CNS, then the next day or so, clear immigration in MEL or CNS leaving the country for BKK or NRT. All immigration need to do is ask them if they are intending to work whilst they are staying in the country. Passengers of foreign nationality get asked this question, why not fight attendants? With Jetstar's interpretation of an international tag sector, these crew operate on any domestic sector that has an international flight number. Just wait for DRW to ADL and SYD to get overseas based flight attendants. |
What about all those Australian pilots working in Singapore for TR, 3K, SQ and MI.... Shall we throw them out of Singapore as well? There are a million Australians working outside Australia, and nobody's suggesting that they should be thrown back into Australia. Globalisation works both ways, I believe.
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I think you will find that it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector. International airlines have operating rights within Australia, including the carriage of foreign crews.
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taily, its JQ aus with foreign nationals as CC. At least the sing and thais can speak english. The emergency exit brief the other day may as well have been in Klingon because I could not understand a word she said.
Many comments from other pax about the english levels of the cc, very ordinary indeed. |
Different, but possibly similar enough, how do QF crew LAX-JFK/LAX?
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LAX-JFK-LAX is different because it cannot be sold purely as a domestic sector.
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax. |
Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors |
"...... it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector" and/or whether an approved Code Share existed.
I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred. Welcome back P-A-F. :E |
Twenty years ago there were foreign nationals operating domestic sectors (from the pointy end of the aircraft) during a certain industrial event relating to domestic pilots. The silence from the QANTAS flight crew, and the cabin crew and engineers' unions was deafening! Why is it a concern now?
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I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred. Welcome back P-A-F. |
20 years ago the Government of the day changed the visa rules to facilitate the 'foreign' crews.
It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations. It used to be called 'creative accounting' |
I'm not sure I see the issue with this. You can buy a TV made in China, a book printed in the UK and/or some Old El Paso taco shells made in Mexico all shipped using a ship registered in Panama crewed by Chinese.
Why should a service industry such as air transport be any different? Why should passengers who happen to live in the vicinity of an International airport be the only ones who benefit from the competition provided by international carriers? Air routes should be fully deregulated globally. Then maybe Australian's can book a flight with QF (say Jan 31 - Feb 19) to Perth (that's not departing at a ridiculous hour) that doesn't cost 70% of a flight Sydney - New York return with a similar airline (Delta). |
Foreign airlines were able to operate domestic sectors within Australia with their own passengers, these flights were not "generally available" to the public.
Eg back in the 1990s BA flew Sydney - Brisbane with passengers who were entering or leaving Australia with them. You could arrive in Sydney from London, stop over for a few days and then go on to Brisbane. Passengers got a special boarding pass and still had to go through customs. With the relatively small market and large distances involved it may not have been worth having two services to different cities but by combining them into one it paid. Africa - Perth - Sydney would be a good example of this. What Jetstar appear to be doing is something different. An Australian Airline with an Australian registered aircraft flying a domestic sector with seats generally available to the public. Assuming the crew enter Australia on the general declaration, entry would be permitted for the stated purpose only ie to transit and return home, not to engage in employment. In order to work in Australia you need to either be a citizen or posess the required visa and this doesn't seem to be the case here. An immigration compliance officer meeting a VH registered Jetstar aircraft in MEL, which has just arrived from DRW would probably detain foreign nationals found to be working on board as they would be in breach of the entry conditions given on arrival in Australia. The domestic sectors in this case should be flown by people with the right to work in Australia, do the foreign flight attendants have the right to work here ? Could, for example Virgin Blue employ a few Thai Airways cabin crew to do domestic sectors for them during their stop overs ? If the Jetstar service is flown with a Singapore aircraft and carries only passengers originating or terminating in Singapore then there should be no problem with the domestic service having a foreign crew. |
Originally Posted by Keith
It is illegal, different story if they had work permits.
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It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations. It is a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly allow an illegal worker to work or refer an illegal worker for work with another business. From 19 August 2007 it became a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly:
Care to substantiate your allegations? I think this thread is a bit of a wind up! :ugh: |
I'm pretty sure the QF mainline BKK based crew did some domestic sectors.
This is the first time I've heard anyone mention there might be something illegal about it. |
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax. Nothing stopping a One World alliance pax booking : Tokyo-Los Angelas on JAL connecting to Los Angelas-New York on Qantas then connecting to New York-London on British Airways |
tailwheel, Its a JQ, ie Australian operation with a QF codeshare, nothing to do with Jetstar Asia. The crew operate it from Singapore to Melb and likewise from Sing to Cairns and also dps to Brisbane.
All domestic flights once they hit Darwin, but use non-nationals to crew it. |
A best it's a very grey area. You have foreigners working for an Australian company within Australia, possibly without the correct visa.
There are many kinds of visas available for different purposes of entry. A multi national might send down a specialist to oversee the establishment of a new subsidiary, an overseas trainer may be hired to teach staff how to use new equipment. These people would need to apply for appropriate permits and most likely they would be granted. Try telling immigration you want to bring in fifty unskilled workers because they will work for a third of what an Australian would cost and see what kind of response you would get. :hmm: I've had my name on hundreds of General Declarations and I don't remember one which gave me the right to work for a local company in the country I was transiting. Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ? What about income tax ? Can I work in Australia for a local company and be paid abroad and taxed at much lower rates ? Workers comp ? What if a Singapore F/A falls off a VH reg aircraft while working in MEL ? Having foreigners working on Australian registered aircraft on domestic sectors raises alot of questions. Prehaps someone from Immigration could provide answers ? PS See similar thread http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...-widebody.html |
I think this thread is a bit of a wind up! Mixing different authorities isn't going to help in this case- one must comply with ALL relevant laws. Just because IATA/CASA (or whoever) grants rights to operate aircraft, doesnt get you off the hook regarding WHO operates the aircraft (immigration, Workcover, etc. etc.). In your Air NZ example, I suspect that the aircraft are operated by people who have the right to work in oz (kiwis). Of course, Immigration officials may check ;-) Surely qantas wouldn't do anything illegal in order to make more money? Right? Right? |
I travelled on JQ62 from SIN to DRW as SLF in April this year. All crew were definitely very Australian. The A320 was too .. VH registered.
So, is Jetstar now using Singapore cabin crews on JQ62? Is that what's alleged here? |
Thought about the Jetconnect LH/SH crew operating domestic sectors in Oz? PER rtn's exMEL?
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Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ? IBM can make a sale, send software / hardware engineers to Australia who install the software / hardware and have them leave. Why shouldn't an airline be able to make a sale, send an aircraft and crew to Australia who transport people and have them leave? What's the underlying philosophy here? The ADF use a charter flight with foreign crew that lands as first port of call in Darwin then several domestic legs. Is anyone suggesting that is wrong? |
On April 14, 2010, one can book domestic passage from Sydney to Brisbane on the MV Sun Princess.
I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia. In terms of the Migration Regulations 1994, could someone explain the difference to JQ operating SIN - DRW - MEL with foreign cabin crew? |
I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia. |
I'm still wondering though. What's the issue in this circumstance? I would have thought foreign crew on a foreign aircraft would not be an issue?
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I tried this link Australian Visa wizard - Visas & Immigration , entering information which would apply to Foreign cabin crew wanting to work in Australia and couldn't find any visa which would cover them.
Prehaps a working holiday visa would cover the younger ones. If so do they have one ? Anyone else want to try ? |
That link would apply to aircrew who wish to move to Australia and then seek a job, rather than aircrew transiting Australia on an aircraft.
There is a big difference between a pilot trying to move to Australia in search of a job and a pilot on an aircraft flying through Australia. << is it just me or is one of the mods trying to ban my ip.. I'm having to use other means... :( >> A simple go away email from a mod would suffice.. ok working again?!? |
Jetstar is currently recruiting heavily in Singapore for the JQ Australia operation, there are other sectors (DRW-SYD, JQ74) with international flight numbers that presently do not have foreign nationals operating on them |
Prehaps a working holiday visa would cover the younger ones. If so do they have one ? << is it just me or is one of the mods trying to ban my ip.. I'm having to use other means... >> |
My error - the rules have changed! :\
Gone from a simple Seamans Book to what apprears to be an excessively complex Visa structure. Where would we be without Politicians and Public Servants? :sad: |
The precedent was set in 1989 by another labour government so don't expect anything to change now.
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JQ management are about to recieve some grief over this.
The FAA took this to the Deputy Prime Minister recently and from reports she was less than impressed with what JQ are doing. If this is left unchecked they can create all sorts of tag flights around the country and use even more o/s based cc, especially now when they are possibly about to have some industrial problems with their eba cc who's agreement expired sometime ago and are disgusted by the new JQ offer. JQ are management have realised that the years of abuse of their workforce is now coming back to bite them so they are coming up with ways to counter this with cheap (sweat shop style) o/s labour! |
tail wheel
On April 14, 2010, one can book domestic passage from Sydney to Brisbane on the MV Sun Princess. I haven't checked the vessel's registry, but I suspect it is probably registered in Panama, US owned, British Master, German Engineers, Filipino, Chinese and Sri Lankan crew. I doubt any, from the Master down, have valid Australian Visas which entitles them to work in Australia. In terms of the Migration Regulations 1994, could someone explain the difference to JQ operating SIN - DRW - MEL with foreign cabin crew? The Navigation Act requires all shipping engaged in the coasting trade to be either licensed or to be granted specific exemptions from the licensing requirements in the form of single or continuous voyage permits (SVPs or CVPs). Any ship, whether Australian or foreign, can obtain a license to operate on the coast provided certain economic conditions are met, as set out in Part VI of the Act, which are principally:
PAF I'm still wondering though. What's the issue in this circumstance? I would have thought foreign crew on a foreign aircraft would not be an issue? A Foreign Aircraft AOC may authorise the operation of a foreign registered aircraft on flights into, out of or within Australian territory that are not regulated domestic flights. (Civil Aviation Act, 1988, 27AE (4.a)) mates rates The precedent was set in 1989 by another labour government so don't expect anything to change now Again, find me the exemption that Jetstar have that allows them to use foreign nationals on domestic sectors. |
I wonder what all that malarkey about 5th freedom rights might have to do with this topic?:confused:
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Once again- it doesn't matter about what one arm of government says; you have to comply with all laws.
As for the whole shipping argument: Since when, Tail Wheel, has pointing out that somebody else is breaking a law, ever been a defence against it? I'd like to see you argue with the next copper who pulls you over for speeding in your car that it's ok because you saw some boats speeding. |
Just because the base is in Singapore it may not mean the flight attendents are Singaporean. Could someone confirm the nationality of the crews ?
Flight attendents working in Singapore are multi national and include Malaysians, Thais, Indonesians, Philippinos, Vietnamese and mainland Chinese. Even a Singaporean f/a not working for SQ would only be on around SG$2000 a month, plus possible commission on sales. Also do the F/As hold ASIC cards as they are accessing restricted areas at Australian airports ? |
I doubt they would hold an ASIC. I am one of many Australian Citizens now working off-shore and they won't give me one. They say it's because I am a 'non-resident'. During my last Aussie I/F renewal I had to be escorted out to the aircraft and escorted back to the hangar. During crew visits with my company I conduct airside 'walk-arounds' on my company ID as if I own the place. (smiling at all the Middle-Eastern bag chuckers with their ASICs' as I walk past).
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Originally Posted by Metro man
(Post 5353085)
Even a Singaporean f/a not working for SQ would only be on around SG$2000 a month, plus possible commission on sales.
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Also do the F/As hold ASIC cards as they are accessing restricted areas at Australian airports ? From the Aviation Transport Security Regulations: 3.05 Crew of foreign and state aircraft etc Despite regulation 3.03, the following people need not display an ASIC in a secure area: (a) a person who is a member of the crew of a foreign aircraft (other than a state aircraft) that is engaged in a regular public transport operation or a charter operation and who: (i) is in the uniform of the aircraft operator; and (ii) displays appropriate identification issued or authorised by the aircraft operator: |
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