Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors
Thread Starter
Foreign Nationals operating domestic Aus sectors
A line from another post prompted me to start this thread.
Roller Merlin
There are overseas based flight attendants (Singaporean and Thai) that operate on Australian domestic sectors without any work visas. This is how it works. Aircraft A operates SIN-DRW as an international sector with overseas based flight attendants. On arrival in DRW, the tech crew go home, all passengers, cabin crew and baggage get off the A/C, clear customs and immigration, recheck bags, go back through security and assemble in the DOMESTIC boarding lounge. The passengers are joined by additional DOMESTIC passengers, board an aircraft (A, B or C) and the overseas flight attendants operate to MEL, BNE or CNS. Arriving at the DOMESTIC terminal. There isn’t a single thing international about this flight. They call it an international TAG sector, but the tech crew have changed, there are no customs or immigration duties to be carried out, the aircraft may have changed, they have sold additional domestic tickets, and the operate to and from the domestic terminals.
Immigration know this is happening. The crew clear immigration in DRW, OPERATE to MEL or CNS, then the next day or so, clear immigration in MEL or CNS leaving the country for BKK or NRT. All immigration need to do is ask them if they are intending to work whilst they are staying in the country. Passengers of foreign nationality get asked this question, why not fight attendants?
With Jetstar's interpretation of an international tag sector, these crew operate on any domestic sector that has an international flight number. Just wait for DRW to ADL and SYD to get overseas based flight attendants.
They are currently not allowed to fly domestic sectors under Australian workplace laws.
There are overseas based flight attendants (Singaporean and Thai) that operate on Australian domestic sectors without any work visas. This is how it works. Aircraft A operates SIN-DRW as an international sector with overseas based flight attendants. On arrival in DRW, the tech crew go home, all passengers, cabin crew and baggage get off the A/C, clear customs and immigration, recheck bags, go back through security and assemble in the DOMESTIC boarding lounge. The passengers are joined by additional DOMESTIC passengers, board an aircraft (A, B or C) and the overseas flight attendants operate to MEL, BNE or CNS. Arriving at the DOMESTIC terminal. There isn’t a single thing international about this flight. They call it an international TAG sector, but the tech crew have changed, there are no customs or immigration duties to be carried out, the aircraft may have changed, they have sold additional domestic tickets, and the operate to and from the domestic terminals.
Immigration know this is happening. The crew clear immigration in DRW, OPERATE to MEL or CNS, then the next day or so, clear immigration in MEL or CNS leaving the country for BKK or NRT. All immigration need to do is ask them if they are intending to work whilst they are staying in the country. Passengers of foreign nationality get asked this question, why not fight attendants?
With Jetstar's interpretation of an international tag sector, these crew operate on any domestic sector that has an international flight number. Just wait for DRW to ADL and SYD to get overseas based flight attendants.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about all those Australian pilots working in Singapore for TR, 3K, SQ and MI.... Shall we throw them out of Singapore as well? There are a million Australians working outside Australia, and nobody's suggesting that they should be thrown back into Australia. Globalisation works both ways, I believe.
Moderator
I think you will find that it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector. International airlines have operating rights within Australia, including the carriage of foreign crews.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 23
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
taily, its JQ aus with foreign nationals as CC. At least the sing and thais can speak english. The emergency exit brief the other day may as well have been in Klingon because I could not understand a word she said.
Many comments from other pax about the english levels of the cc, very ordinary indeed.
Many comments from other pax about the english levels of the cc, very ordinary indeed.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LAX-JFK-LAX is different because it cannot be sold purely as a domestic sector.
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax.
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax.
Moderator
"...... it depends upon which AOC was used to conduct the "domestic" flight sector" and/or whether an approved Code Share existed.
I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred.
Welcome back P-A-F.
I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred.
Welcome back P-A-F.
Twenty years ago there were foreign nationals operating domestic sectors (from the pointy end of the aircraft) during a certain industrial event relating to domestic pilots. The silence from the QANTAS flight crew, and the cabin crew and engineers' unions was deafening! Why is it a concern now?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Owen Stanley's "Real World"
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I seriously doubt any infringement of DIAC regulations occurred.
Welcome back P-A-F.
Welcome back P-A-F.
I'm sure for a consultancy fee I could show PPRuNe how to stop an application like that 
20 years ago the Government of the day changed the visa rules to facilitate the 'foreign' crews.
It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations.
It used to be called 'creative accounting'
It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations.
It used to be called 'creative accounting'
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Owen Stanley's "Real World"
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure I see the issue with this. You can buy a TV made in China, a book printed in the UK and/or some Old El Paso taco shells made in Mexico all shipped using a ship registered in Panama crewed by Chinese.
Why should a service industry such as air transport be any different? Why should passengers who happen to live in the vicinity of an International airport be the only ones who benefit from the competition provided by international carriers?
Air routes should be fully deregulated globally. Then maybe Australian's can book a flight with QF (say Jan 31 - Feb 19) to Perth (that's not departing at a ridiculous hour) that doesn't cost 70% of a flight Sydney - New York return with a similar airline (Delta).
Why should a service industry such as air transport be any different? Why should passengers who happen to live in the vicinity of an International airport be the only ones who benefit from the competition provided by international carriers?
Air routes should be fully deregulated globally. Then maybe Australian's can book a flight with QF (say Jan 31 - Feb 19) to Perth (that's not departing at a ridiculous hour) that doesn't cost 70% of a flight Sydney - New York return with a similar airline (Delta).
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozzo; 18th Nov 2009 at 06:38.
Foreign airlines were able to operate domestic sectors within Australia with their own passengers, these flights were not "generally available" to the public.
Eg back in the 1990s BA flew Sydney - Brisbane with passengers who were entering or leaving Australia with them. You could arrive in Sydney from London, stop over for a few days and then go on to Brisbane. Passengers got a special boarding pass and still had to go through customs.
With the relatively small market and large distances involved it may not have been worth having two services to different cities but by combining them into one it paid. Africa - Perth - Sydney would be a good example of this.
What Jetstar appear to be doing is something different. An Australian Airline with an Australian registered aircraft flying a domestic sector with seats generally available to the public. Assuming the crew enter Australia on the general declaration, entry would be permitted for the stated purpose only ie to transit and return home, not to engage in employment.
In order to work in Australia you need to either be a citizen or posess the required visa and this doesn't seem to be the case here.
An immigration compliance officer meeting a VH registered Jetstar aircraft in MEL, which has just arrived from DRW would probably detain foreign nationals found to be working on board as they would be in breach of the entry conditions given on arrival in Australia. The domestic sectors in this case should be flown by people with the right to work in Australia, do the foreign flight attendants have the right to work here ?
Could, for example Virgin Blue employ a few Thai Airways cabin crew to do domestic sectors for them during their stop overs ?
If the Jetstar service is flown with a Singapore aircraft and carries only passengers originating or terminating in Singapore then there should be no problem with the domestic service having a foreign crew.
Eg back in the 1990s BA flew Sydney - Brisbane with passengers who were entering or leaving Australia with them. You could arrive in Sydney from London, stop over for a few days and then go on to Brisbane. Passengers got a special boarding pass and still had to go through customs.
With the relatively small market and large distances involved it may not have been worth having two services to different cities but by combining them into one it paid. Africa - Perth - Sydney would be a good example of this.
What Jetstar appear to be doing is something different. An Australian Airline with an Australian registered aircraft flying a domestic sector with seats generally available to the public. Assuming the crew enter Australia on the general declaration, entry would be permitted for the stated purpose only ie to transit and return home, not to engage in employment.
In order to work in Australia you need to either be a citizen or posess the required visa and this doesn't seem to be the case here.
An immigration compliance officer meeting a VH registered Jetstar aircraft in MEL, which has just arrived from DRW would probably detain foreign nationals found to be working on board as they would be in breach of the entry conditions given on arrival in Australia. The domestic sectors in this case should be flown by people with the right to work in Australia, do the foreign flight attendants have the right to work here ?
Could, for example Virgin Blue employ a few Thai Airways cabin crew to do domestic sectors for them during their stop overs ?
If the Jetstar service is flown with a Singapore aircraft and carries only passengers originating or terminating in Singapore then there should be no problem with the domestic service having a foreign crew.
Moderator
It would seem that what is happening today is that the cabin crews are working in Australia contrary to their entry visa limitations.
It is a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly allow an illegal worker to work or refer an illegal worker for work with another business.
From 19 August 2007 it became a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly:
From 19 August 2007 it became a criminal offence under the Migration Act 1958 for a person to knowingly or recklessly:
- allow an illegal worker to work
- refer an illegal worker for work with another business.
Care to substantiate your allegations?
I think this thread is a bit of a wind up!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A cheap seat at the front of a 777 :-)
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You must have an inbound/outbound component from/to Australia to buy that sector as a pax.
Nothing stopping a One World alliance pax booking :
Tokyo-Los Angelas on JAL
connecting to
Los Angelas-New York on Qantas
then connecting to
New York-London on British Airways
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 23
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tailwheel, Its a JQ, ie Australian operation with a QF codeshare, nothing to do with Jetstar Asia. The crew operate it from Singapore to Melb and likewise from Sing to Cairns and also dps to Brisbane.
All domestic flights once they hit Darwin, but use non-nationals to crew it.
All domestic flights once they hit Darwin, but use non-nationals to crew it.
A best it's a very grey area. You have foreigners working for an Australian company within Australia, possibly without the correct visa.
There are many kinds of visas available for different purposes of entry. A multi national might send down a specialist to oversee the establishment of a new subsidiary, an overseas trainer may be hired to teach staff how to use new equipment. These people would need to apply for appropriate permits and most likely they would be granted.
Try telling immigration you want to bring in fifty unskilled workers because they will work for a third of what an Australian would cost and see what kind of response you would get.
I've had my name on hundreds of General Declarations and I don't remember one which gave me the right to work for a local company in the country I was transiting.
Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ?
What about income tax ? Can I work in Australia for a local company and be paid abroad and taxed at much lower rates ?
Workers comp ? What if a Singapore F/A falls off a VH reg aircraft while working in MEL ?
Having foreigners working on Australian registered aircraft on domestic sectors raises alot of questions. Prehaps someone from Immigration could provide answers ?
PS See similar thread http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...-widebody.html
There are many kinds of visas available for different purposes of entry. A multi national might send down a specialist to oversee the establishment of a new subsidiary, an overseas trainer may be hired to teach staff how to use new equipment. These people would need to apply for appropriate permits and most likely they would be granted.
Try telling immigration you want to bring in fifty unskilled workers because they will work for a third of what an Australian would cost and see what kind of response you would get.
I've had my name on hundreds of General Declarations and I don't remember one which gave me the right to work for a local company in the country I was transiting.
Could an American working for COCA COLA in the USA come to Australia and start loading trucks with pallets of COKE ?
What about income tax ? Can I work in Australia for a local company and be paid abroad and taxed at much lower rates ?
Workers comp ? What if a Singapore F/A falls off a VH reg aircraft while working in MEL ?
Having foreigners working on Australian registered aircraft on domestic sectors raises alot of questions. Prehaps someone from Immigration could provide answers ?
PS See similar thread http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...-widebody.html
Last edited by Metro man; 18th Nov 2009 at 11:28.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this thread is a bit of a wind up!
Mixing different authorities isn't going to help in this case- one must comply with ALL relevant laws. Just because IATA/CASA (or whoever) grants rights to operate aircraft, doesnt get you off the hook regarding WHO operates the aircraft (immigration, Workcover, etc. etc.). In your Air NZ example, I suspect that the aircraft are operated by people who have the right to work in oz (kiwis). Of course, Immigration officials may check ;-)
Surely qantas wouldn't do anything illegal in order to make more money? Right? Right?
