VBA Multiple EBA Woes
 

FYI things aren't all that rosy at VBA. The "people who love their jobs" are not so happy with what the employer is trying to pay them. VBA is in dispute over EBA's with Engineers, Cabin Crew and Ground Crew. Trouble is looming if you ask me and those in "The Village" appear oblivious to it all.
I realise that times are tough and you have to save a buck here and there but relying on these three work groups to not take some form of industrial action is walking a very fine line.

Link of where the Engineers are at: 190809B200910452

And they will shortly be fighting on another front with VA.

V

We all love our jobs at VB, but what they are offering employees at present is nothing more than a joke, and in current votes from CC and ground crew go to prove that what they are offering is not what employees want, time to open their ears and start listening, if VB need to cover increase costs they can (and already have done so) by adding a check bag charge of $8 at booking online or $20 at the airport, excess baggage charges have also increased from $8 to $10 per 1kg over.

With Australia is a good economic position already it is being flagged that interest rates will go up next month, the cost of living is increasing all the time yet (ground crew) are being told to 'hang out' three and half years before our next pay rise:eek:

Ground crew had their last payrise on the 1st of November 2007.

Real wages have been in decline for over 20 years (I couldn't be bothered to find a link to the data). When wages are adjusted for inflation we (employees) are all far worse off in 2009 than we really acknowledge. Governments love inflation because it's the hidden tax that ensures you never get ahead, get punished for saving and continue to work like a good little Lemming till you are old and grey:=

Whenever I see 3% a year increments offered I cringe. The real inflation rate (not the doctored "weighted" CPI) has been well above 5% for the past few years and is probably still around that figure. When we accept 3% or 4% gross wage increases we are in fact taking a pay cut - Why do we accept this crap? Why don't the useless Unions take up the fight to get fair increases that maintain the buying power and standard of living of the workers? I'll never join a Union as I think they are p!ssweak for not fighting for fair increases, they are just part of the deadwood "leaching" schemers who screw the workers for their own benefit.

3% payrise, once taxed (at average 30%) leaves you with a (net) 2% pay increase to cope with 5% inflation.... compund that over 5 or 10 years and see what you have lost :mad:

All VB employees need to stand up and fight far a fair wage increase... If you get a small (or no) pay increase you are just getting lied to and r00ted a bit harder this time around...

What needs to happen is Airlines start putting up their prices so they can get better yeilds, how many other industries or services have dropped prices as much as the Airlines.

Have you been to JB HiFi or Harvey Norman lately - bargains galore!

Grogbog

Your feelings and attitude are precisely why you should join a union. Get in there and change what you do not like. Get in there and have a voice in the running of the union. Get in there and take control of your destiny, rather than sitting back wingeing and whining about how bad things are.

A union is only a collective of members and is only as strong as those members make it.

Maui

Welcome to modern feudalism.

Vassals were in turn tenants of the nobles, while the peasants are obliged to live on their lord's land and give him homage, labor, and a share of the produce, notionally in exchange for........ employment!

Awarding one self shares during the present climate should have given staff a wake up call and called for action/justification but as usual they(FEDS) did what again?

abc1, If you are refering to the AFAP as the FEDS then you should get the facts right before you having a shot. The FEDs didn't have to do anything because management honoured the pilots' EBA and paid the 3% payrise due. There was no question or suggestion from the company that the payrise would not happen. This may, in fact, show the value, generally, the workers get by being unionised and the strength particularly of the AFAP.

Pilots in V would do themselves a big favour by getting themselves organised and properly represented.

abc1

Let's go point by point in your last post.

Is not a 3% increase in your salary payrise???? The FEDS would have been irresponsible to push for a higher payrise in the current climate.

While it is debatable that the surplus was not handled well as it could have been, we should appreciate the fact that despite the reduction in flying not one pilot was made redundant.

Verbal diarrhoea does not substitute for facts.

I am interested to hear what union you believe can genuinely represent you.

Actually quite a few pilots were made redundant.... I know of many that were told that their position was redundant, but there was a job on less pay, on a different type, in a different city, if they wanted it.....

Yes, no one was forced to leave VB, but many positions on the B737 were 'made redundant'.

The Chef

Chef, while you are technically correct, at least no one was on the street.

Maui....

My post was more of a rant than a complaint/whinge. I was making a point.

I have made choices to ensure my income/standard of living is maintained when indexed for inflation. I am not on an EBA.

The reason I won't join a Union is because the "majority" will always accept 3% (or so) no matter what I believe in. It's called Democracy.

The Union starts off "demanding" what is reasonable and then the compromises come in and the workers end up working harder for a pay cut.
Why do people on EBA's have to give productivity increases just to keep their incomes up with inflation... or to cop the pay cuts as I rant on and on about!!!!

Good luck with the EBA negotiation VB Folks. Fight for what you deserve!

Grogbog

But that is exactly the point. It is a democracy.

Most of us are not unique, so get a bunch of like minded souls and democratically push through what you want. If you can't persuade the majority, then possibly it is not a good idea.

From your CRM studies, take note of the word SYNERGY.

The tools are in your hands.

Maui

ABC1

Whilst I accept that the AFAP representation does have its issues (as all Unions will) it always amazes me that individuals forget that "THE FEDS" as they are usually referred to are in fact the pilots themselves.

When I hear a complaint on the line about whatever issue I very rarely hear that the matter has been formally raised with the AFAP, on most occasions the individual concerned could not even bother making a simple phone call to Melbourne.

Much moaning was made recently regarding the assignment of unwanted leave yet was the AFAP asked to intervene on a pilots behalf to prevent being forced on leave? NUP!

Much moaning was made with the recent 'musical chairs' yet was
the AFAP asked to defend a pilot who was being advised he was redundant? NUP!

If a pilot chooses to accept a position not of his choice without requesting AFAP representation then I find it very difficult to listen to some who accuse the AFAP of "inept representation".

With the assistance of messrs Cut and Paste your statement -
"Please do not try to exonerate the inactions and subsequent injustices contained herein with a lackadaisical retort"
is rather poignant for those who choose to do nothing except complain after the fact!

Pilots really are their own worst enemy sometimes and are more than happy to blame someone else for their own inaction.

Your criticism of the awarding of shares to the board from the recent equity raising may be valid but do you really think that it is the job of the AFAP to keep control of management remuneration? Perhaps you are confusing shareholder rights to employee entitlements.

This question was asked previously of you (without response) -

"I am interested to hear what union you believe can genuinely represent you."

I too am very interested in that answer and specifically who and how any other representative body will achieve any better.

This "new" representative body that you advocate will have what membership, what assets, what name, what structure, what power, what legitimate standing, what abilities that the AFAP does not have now, and what new ability that will represent all pilots?

For all the critics of the AFAP and its representation - we have an EBA through to 2012 that I think would be unachievable today (some 737 Captains earning over $250,000), we have retained ALL pilots within the group despite the downturn and with commitments to return to original positions when the opportunity arises, and we have continuing opportunities both Domestically and Internationally for all pilots.

Sure we have more work to do industrially but this glass is half full!

Vipa
 

Word on the street is that the AIRC has granted VIPA registration as a Union.

Anyone know any more?

V

AFAP, as the sole objector (if that's a word) dropped their objection to the VIPA registration 30 minutes into the last proceedings, so it was only a formality for the Commissioner to put it through. Thisof course, mean that VIPA will accelerate their membership numbers with warp-speed so that us VB/VA guys will finally be represented by people who actually have our best interests at heart and not a bunch of "fat-cats" feathering their their own nest. (At first I thought the use of "cats" and "nest" weren't really appropriate, but on second thought I realized that I may in fact have been unusually clever in my rhetoric....)

Is there a website that posts the Commissions decision


Forgive me for asking a stupid question, but how will VIPA represent my interests better than AFAP.


Further, where was the pilot council when redundancies and transfers were announced. Clearly the pilots of VB stood by and let their fellow pilots be pushed places most did not want to go. Now surprise surprise there will be 38 upgrades in the next 6-12 months.



I work for VA, why should I join VIPA in a single union and have those same people, through weight of numbers, screw me over too. VB already **** over the VA pilots by dropping the experience requirements for VB pilots coming over. Despite most being nice human beings it still leaves a bitter feeling.

Try this hunglo...[2009] FWA 175


Going out on the limb - when all of you joined you knew what was on offer and you knew it wasn't Emirates, ETIHAD, Qatar or even QF etc and that big money easy rosters (40hrs/month) were not and never (I doubt) will be the norm.

Things are picking up - the best way to show dissatisfaction is to walk. When flights get cancelled T&C's pick up pretty quickly. Sadly though not many of you will - as typical of a pilot makeup, we all like to whine and moan, but we don't like change. You like living in BNE (or wherever you might be based), the routes, the crew, staff travel and all the other good things about VB (or for that matter J* which this rhetoric equally applies).

Stepping off the soapbox for the next contender...:)

hunglo, that will be an issue for the VIPA leadership to deal with.

I can guarantee one thing though. If you continue to see the DJ crew as the 'enemy' who will try and screw you over then the company wins by pitting both groups at each others throats. You need to realise that your interests and their interests are intrinsically mixed. It's a symbiotic relationship where one needs the other to survive.

OK, now that I've stopped channelling Qui-Gon Jinn (Star Wars, Ep 1) the general thrust still holds true. Stay divided and you're doomed to always cutting off each others noses to spite your own face. Work together and there may be some losers but in the long run everyone will end up far better off.

So a Cruise FO in V knows how many commands there will be in VB over the next 12 months. I find that a little hard to believe Chief. :}

Thanks for the link to the VIPA decision.

Well, I admit that I did go into VA with the knowledge that it wasn't Emirates, ETIHAD, Qatar or even QF. I knew that the light rosters were only transitory. But I wasn't complaining about that. I save that little tidbit for later.

Who said I was a cruise FO. Even if I was, why is it so unbelievable that a cruise FO could know anyone in VB with the knowledge. Its hardly a secret. I'm told that the number is just to cope with attrition not expansion.

Having said that, no one has tried to explain why VIPA will do a better job than the AFAP.

I agree that the VA pilots need to be organised now. Not necessarily that it should be under VIPA. The recent (in)action at VB by the AFAP was more to do with the VB pilots themselves as stated by ad-astra earlier in this thread. The lack of support for their own pilots screwed over both FOs and CRFOs at VA. In fact the outcome for the VB pilots pushed to VA was probably pretty good for them in addition to the existing requirement that all the command slots for aircraft 4-7 have to be offered to VB pilots.

The VB Pilot Council happily went down that path with the full knowledge of the ramifications both for their own guys and VA pilots. So now,with the weight of numbers against VA pilots why would I trust them to act in my interests in a single representative body. I understand why the VIPA advocates want this - more pilots means more subscriptions, without which it is difficult to fight the big battles.

The best outcome is a organisation that only represents VA pilots. That doesn't mean that it can't be the same union or that that can't work together, just separate councils, voting, issues etc.


Remember - SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.

Keeping The Air Fair
 

I dont know what all the fuss is about ? I mean, VB is about 'keeping the air fair', and says nothing about 'keeping salaries fair' ? I dont understand all the moanings and groanings taking place, wheres all that virgin flair, that love of 'giving the underdog' a go ????

I always love how people follow the pied piper, in this case people follow the banter, promises, fun and excitement offered to those who wish to join Bransons global empire.Then once onboard, find out the stark reality - An empire built globally upon the 'good will and willingness of staff to work for a bowl of rice slary' so that the good of the greater mankind can recieve fair prices every day'!
Absolute fools ! The 90% of the underpaid plebs suffer so that the 10% of Management can fill their pockets with giant salaries, bonuses,perks, and if the general staff knew even a tenth of what kind of cash the Executives are squirelling away then there would be civil war.
Friends, wakey wakey, you are being used and abused for the absolute sole purpose of making a handful of hand picked chosen ones extremely wealthy. If any employee at VB ( below management level) desires to become rich in life, acquire a nestegg that will care for your loved ones in the future, well you better start typing out your resignation letter now !

...VIPA will accelerate their membership numbers with warp-speed so that us VB/VA guys will finally be represented.

I might suggest you include your PB/Poly mates in that too, as the Tasman is now becoming 1 Domestic market and the writing is on the wall! ('89 will look like a tea-party) Their terms are currently expired and under discussion so it might be prudent for your own T&C's, for your VB/VA Pilot Council to be envolved in some form.
Look at what Jetstar have done with their previously Aust-payed - N.Z based crew and what is in store for the mainland company...

Word is the VA pilots are looking to align themselves pronto.

Something has them fired up.

:suspect:

Swanrider - my oversight, you're absolutely right and I stand corrected. The best way forward for the pilots in the antipodean Virgin empire is to join ranks and be represented by a common organisation. The advantages are many - carreer path progression for ALL, so that CRFO's in VA can get sticktime in a narrowbody jet and it will be worthwhile to persue a widebody carreer for those currently plying the skies in domestic or shorthaul Pacific ops. Theres currently a poll going in the internal VA staff Website regarding this issue and whilst I have greater belief in VIPA (as it has had less time and opportunity to become corrupted by the power of "representation"). the most impportant part is to get everybody in line for the next EBA negotiations.

Art, The majority of CRFOs are not juniors with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76. A large proportion have been captains in SAABs, metros, Jets under 40tonnes etc. Some have heavy jet time in 747, 767s just not the 2000hrs of heavy jet time initially required by VA. The forced move of VB pilots saw that criteria substanially reduced to 500hrs VB time for an FO slot in VA. What skills do you think will be learned by the CRFOs flying domesticly in Australia that they don't allready have? Before anyone wanks on about energy management and swept wings have a think about their unsupported operations in to remote and regional airports and the people being taken off the street in to VB as FOs in the last couple of years and in the very begining. Examples would be unfair to the individuals concerned but anyone in VB knows what I am talking about. Do you honestly believe that you can take a metro or Dash-8 FO /Capt into VB as a FO on a 737 but it can't be done in a B777.

Knowall, it was a 1000 hours VB for a FO slot...

Quote:

"Art, The majority of CRFOs are not juniors with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76. A large proportion have been captains in SAABs, metros, Jets under 40tonnes etc."

Now I can almost understand a junior with a couple of hundred hours in a B-76 jumping into a situation such as this. Almost! But can anyone shed some light on what drives a person in the above quoted catagory, to effectively halt their career for a permanent seat in the back of a 777, on what has to be the most appalling wages and conditions of long haul anywhere!?

I certainly have no problem with the concept of working your way up, but from what I've seen of the VA contract, unless you have at least 2,000 hours of "heavy" Jet time, you aint' going nowhere! As well, you don't even have the prospect of incremental pay rises.

Just doesn't make sense to me?:{

Interestingly enough Knowall most if not all of the VB FO's had substantial time with at least one having heavy command experience ,another over 5000 hours on B777s and another one having substantial B737 international command time in Europe. As for the Captains there is a deed in place between the two companies which came from the CEO so I can't see that changing.

Might pay to do some research although that might wreck the sob story.

Two unions a bargaining position do not make.
V Australia management must be loving every minute of this!
You are probably better off out of both unions, just form a
negotiating committee, it's got to be more useful than two
freaking unions. AIPA would be a better option.

Yeah, they've done a top job of looking after their guys, haven't they:rolleyes:

Not happy knowall? Well, neither were a significant number of the 800+ VB pilots when we didn't get all we wanted in the V Oz start-up. So we have had to settle for 4/7th's of the commands up to aircraft 7 (as per the EBA)... so be it, thats life and we have moved on.
As for VB seconded F/O's & CRZ F/O's? Well V management made a fair point, that if V was to become over-crewed, then VB would do what it could to take 777 surplus crew into the domestic operation to protect YOUR jobs too. So it cuts both ways.
If you have an issue coming to VB, then maybe you should take that point up with your management, since it is THEY who have instigated the career path option for CRZ F/O's and F/O's into VB.
Right now I would be more concern with whether we ALL have a job in 12 months time, if the haemorrhaging doesn't stop at V !!!

SETTLE! You're kidding aren't you.

As if CASA would have given approval for you wannabes to startup a long haul operation on a 777. You were damn lucky to get any commands on the first 7 aircraft at all.

"wannabes" eh Balibo. There are dozens of Longhaul experienced captains in VB. Given that the VA Chief Pilot didn't even have a 777 rating when he started at VA (not that it is really relevant) your ignorant sledging shows you up for the bitter and twisted knob that you are. Great first post sport:ok:

air command, 'not happy' is not adequate statement

The career progression stated at the interviews is not what is now being touted by VB pilots (our own management refuses to answer the questions). The quote that anthill posted was not given to interviewees (at least not me or anyone else I have asked). Recently 6 PB FO positions were advertised internally, a few more than that applied, two CRFOs with NG ratings were offered positions, however there was no right of return (hardly career progression if you can't come back) and the remaining applicants (CRFOs and FOs) could not be released by VA??!! No explanation as to why.

I would take it up with management but we don't seem to have any. All the decisions seem to be made at VB and they won't speak to us. We were told that VB pilots did not want to come across to VA at the start. The agreement for commands to be offered on 4/7th of the ordered aircraft whilst not made obvious to us it was discovered relatively early.

My winge is that now the VB pilots (and a few twisted souls at VA who began their long haul careers with 1500hrs as 2nd officers / cadets and spent quite a while there) are pushing the idea that CRFOs and FOs need to go to VB to "gain experience" so that they can come across in front of us who took the risk of a new start up. Clearly this is unnecessary for a large proportion of CRFOs and FOs. What experience will VB pilots bring to VA ops that can't be learned at VA by the current CRFOs and FOs?

If most of us had known this we would not have bothered joining VA. At the time VB (along with everyone else) was recruiting heavily. The fastest path would have been to join VB/NJ/SW and by now we would only have a short time to go to acquire the 1000hrs (I was corrected by Beeroclock but yet to confirm it). More to the point if the only way to progress is to leave then those with experience probably will as soon as a viable option appears.

Its a pity air command that you seem to think that VA is hemorrhaging money. As I understand it, it is loosing less money than was planned upon. I don't think anyone on these forums predicted the implosion of the US and European banking systems. So how could you expect VB to, once VB started down this path is was impossible to back out without bankrupting VB.

I know its been pointed out earlier but, it costs money to start a new business. VB was not profitable in its first few years why would you expect VA to be? More than half the 160m loss was due to management stuff ups (fuel hedging / currency exchange) not VA. Loads have been good but in the end they need more aircraft to expand the business to defray the start up and overhead costs. The only other alternative is for VB to grab more market share without reducing yields.

Firstly, to those VA pilots posting here, welcome to the Virgin Blue group. Yes, I know this is a new perspective for some of you but Vaus happens to be PART of the Virgin Blue group. So from those of us who've worked here for a while, welcome. Secondly, I really can't understand the comments regarding VB scraping the bottom of the barrel last year or the year before that for pilots. What has lead the less intelligent of your clan to come to this conclusion? You may rest assured that there has been a wealth of versatile experience employed into the airline in this time and for you to suggest otherwise without backing your claim makes you appear quite dumb! I am aware of a few Vaus pilots who were unsuccessful with their attempts at VB who were subsequently selected by Vaus. Care to comment? Thirdly, I think most VB pilots are aware of the experience of some of the Vaus cruise FOs and realise that they have every right to progress with minimum fuss however, it is not our fault that the agreement reached in our EBA regarding VB pilots crewing Vaus aircraft was not part of the information given to you at the interview by Vaus management. These VB pilots taking Senior FO and Captain postions was ALWAYS going to happen and the redundancy issue merely expedited things. At the end of the day you accepted a position that has been widely criticised for its terms and conditions and you did it why? Because someone told you it would get better? Maybe some of you really haven't been in this game for very long. Best regards.

"in front of us who took the risk of a new start up"

If Vaus fails, so does VB, so all those that put in the work for years to place VB into a position to start Vaus, and give your your shiny 777 involuntarily took the said risk..........

All those people that took CFO positions will just have to suck it up!! You should be ashamed for accepting those positions all you managed to do was fuel the fire of management that they can pay us nothing and we will still accept it..
As for the hours required being lowered for Vb guys/girls to come across i find it amusing some CFOs didnt even have the 1000 hours to become a CFO in the first place..
Without even going to a interview i was well aware that accepting a CFO position was locking yourself into the backseat for many years,that was there plan from the start but most of you went in with stars in your eyes and blinkers on.You cant all complain now but it was pretty much common knowledge what you were all accepting..And that was pineapples turned sideways and you all lined up in droves to bend over and say when...
If nobody even applied they would have had to rethink what was on offer at least then if you were going to be stuck in the back as a second officer(oops sorry cruise first officer) you might have at least been on some better T and Cs..
I have no pity for guys/girls out there trying to fast track us all to the lowest paid pilots in the western world..I hope you all do hurry up and move on elsewhere so they realise they need to change whats on offer so people generally can move through the ranks of aviation and it wont be a pay cut from there current job to accept it..
Im with Krusty i just dont get why anyone with all that experience would choose to take these positions again apart from trying to fast track us to working for free!!

Thank you for the welcome biton. I can't comment on why VB didn't take some. Was it too old / young / ugly / fat / gay/ not gay enough / bad hair day in the sim or interview / didn't have sufficient virgin flare? To my knowledge of all the CRFOs and FOs only 1 VA CRFO required any additional sim or line training.

If I may correct you. The agreement attached to the VB EBA is for VB pilots to be offered commands in 4/7th of the first 7 aircraft. Not FO slots. Also I didn't make any comment about VB scrapping the bottom of the barrel for pilots. I assume the author was having a crack at the VA pilots. I do believe that for those with experience there is nothing to learn at VB that couldn't be learned in VA.

I imagine we were all hoping VA would follow the VB path. I remember far enough back to the widespread condemnation of 'Pay your own endorsement' and 'Crappy terms and conditions' condemned by all 9 years ago. You seem to have a convenient memory Beeroclock or perhaps you are not old enough to remember. You now condemn us for the same path that the VB pilots took.

Beeroclock given your comments I can only assume that you haven't worked long in GA or a regional or ever worked in place you or your wife didn't like. With so little common ground it is impossible to explain to you why those with experience took the job. Also the criteria referred to was 1000hrs in jets over 40tonnes not 1000TT and that was only available to the VB pilots facing redundancy all of us who were already there had to have 2000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a FO slot and 4000hrs in jets over 40tonnes for a command.

Chookcooker we didn't decide to start VA anymore than you started VB. VB pilots had first dibs to come across and didn't take it. Now those same people are trying to shaft us for the position they didn't initially want. The risk to VB is only in a disorderly shutdown in the climate of the recent past. We took the risk when times were good and VB could have sold the aircraft on before delivery leaving us high and dry. Those times will return sooner than most realize. I would have thought that the major shareholders were the ones who took the risk and in doing so risked your and now my job. The recent equity raising was over subscribed, so obviously some have confidence in the future. As I said before loads have been really good. Apparently almost every seat in October has been sold