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QF Staff Travel. FA jump seat use
Recent developments suggest a move to the above-mentioned policy whereby operating crew are able to have their travel companion occupy a FA jump seat on full aircraft for staff travel purposes.
It seems to me that this new policy is at odds with another of QF's recent initiatives whereby it proposes to sell exit row seats at a premium for the extra space/legroom they provide. How are people [frequent flyers?] who've bought an exit row seat going to react when they find that, after boarding in Singapore, they are going to have to sit and watch someone gorge themselves on lobster and caviar and glasses of French whilst having their space, privacy and legroom severely limited? Has anyone in "management":rolleyes: considered the trip hazard created by having a pulled down jump-seat outside the doors 3 toilets [where people stand and congregate] in a pitch black cabin? Have any of these issues been considered? I doubt it. Also. Does it project a professional image of the company, or otherwise..........? What would/does CASA think? |
ditch
as I understand it the use of the seat is for T/O & landing only - the staff (crew) companion would use crew rest seats at other times except when crew are using them. - believe it mainly came from the 380 where the crew rest seats are rated at 9g not the 16g required for T/O & landing (which in itself is a triumph for those who did the scope document) ....................would not want to be in the jump seat for the whole sector - been a while, but last time I sat in one I didn't see any IFE, leg rest or tray table and the recline was uncomfortable.....(sounds a bit like a downgrade eh!!!) :E |
Airtags,
Oh, OK. So if I have it right it's only in place for the A380 where the FA crew rest seats are only approved for use in cruise? If so apologies for the rant and wasted bandwidth......... |
incorrect airtags... started as an A380 issue but now all A/C except 737 and its for Tech crew families only apparently
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For 'aircrew'...cant see why that wouldnt include CC:ok:
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It is for aircrew ie tech and cabin, but its purpose is to avail the Capt (for traveling beneficiaries) a seat in lieu of the now unavailable flight deck seat(s).
"The Captain may authorise the allocation........" |
well that is not my understanding but i dont think they should be used by anyone. including Tech or cabin crew families. Those seats are for operational crew only and flight attendants spend all there time getting passengers off them on night sectors as it is.
Tech crew families have access to 1st class and business class and economy and Cabin Crew families have access to business class and economy class. I do not think that operational seats should ever be used by passengers. As for only being used for landing and take off....thats tosh they will be there for the whole flight and in the way of the crew and the passengers at the exit row seats. Cant imagine that a passenger who has paid extra for an exit row seat would be happy being crunched up with a staff passenger encroaching on the space they have paid extra for.... Another loopy idea by the lunatics that run Qantas.... No doubt CASA and the travel writers in the media will have a view about it i am sure |
Originally Posted by Pegasus747
I do not think that operational seats should ever be used by passengers.
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I have not heard of cabin "jump seats" being offered.... but crew rest seats for sure... on the provision that no crew member objects to it use by staff trying to get out of a busy port.
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Firstly, the FSO states that the CAPTAIN may authorise the use of the assist jumpseat for AIRCREW and their travel beneficiaries i.e. Tech and Cabin. It does NOT state that it is tech crew only.
Secondly, the FSO does not mention anywhere that this is for takeoff and landing only. One would assume that after takeoff the crew rest seats could be used but this may not be an option. If not, then it's the jumpseat the entire way. Thirdly, this applies to 380,744,330,767 BA use this same policy regarding jumpseats. A friend of mine did LHR to BKK in a 744 cabin crew jumpseat late last year. READ THE FSO BEFORE POSTING ON PPRUNE!!!! Tech crew families have access to 1st class and business class and economy and Cabin Crew families have access to business class and economy class. I do not think that operational seats should ever be used by passengers. As for only being used for landing and take off....thats tosh And finally, when it's really tight and you have to get home are you not going to ask for the flight deck jumseat then???? |
peg, you don't reckon anyone should ever occupy assist cc seats. What about the average punter who for years has been sitting 2 feet behind us in the flight deck!
That is not exactly the best situation ever. Shooting an approach in poor weather with some 'neville' talking to you all the way down! It's called helping out your fellow staff. Just another comment from a lhcc member and their superior attitude. How bout helping out your fellow Qantas employees/beneficiaries instead of always thinking about yourself. You're only in the seat next to them for 5 or 10 minutes. We've got them for 14 hours in some cases! hadagutfull, have a look at CSO's or FSO's depending on who you are! tempo, peg would be the first to ask for the jumpseat and impose on you! But to have anyone impose on him. Perish the thought! :ugh: |
Just another comment from a lhcc member and their superior attitude. Then Funbags tells us about our attitude to staff and this is how he describes them... with some 'neville' talking to you all the way down! Has funbags or any other skygod ever considered that the jump seat is there for the safety of cabin crew? How do you think it feels to be walking through a cabin especially on a night sector and suddenly get caught out with some turbulence that the techies did not think would be as bad... Then when you get to a jumpseat find it is taken by a staff pax..... This is a safety issue funbags not some ego driven problem you have... |
How are people [frequent flyers?] who've bought an exit row seat going to react when they find that, after boarding in Singapore, they are going to have to sit and watch someone gorge themselves on lobster and caviar and glasses of French whilst having their space, privacy and legroom severely limited? OK - keep the sensationalist winging and complaining going ..... Downunder zone would not be the same without it. |
lobey, safety issue hey. Much more of a safety issue having someone in a cc assist jumpseat than someone in the flightdeck yapping away! We've been doing it for years trying to help out staff travelling, but enter into the cc domain and it's stay away! We're not gonna help getting staff on! It's a safety issue. Yeah much more important than staffies in the flightdeck, you might get interrupted reading your Woman's Day magazine! :hmm:
I bet you were the first to ask for a jump seat when you were working, and you would of been so polite! Please Mr Captain, can I please have the jump seat Mr Captain! Thankyou Mr Captain! :yuk: Back to the lawn bowls and slippers mate! |
This is a safety issue funbags not some ego driven problem you have... This is about safety for Cabin Crew .....not your warped ego ranting about the flight deck once again...remember the world of aviation does not start and finish with the flight deck....:yuk: The tech crew are sitting up there with their seat belts on but we are walking around in an aluminium tube at nearly 600 mph with no seat belts.... If we need to put one on because of turbulence I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the cabin crew jump seats to be available.... It's not the fault of cabin crew that the authorities have stopped the use of the seats on the flight deck...in any case that fixes your problem of someone sitting behind you doesn't it......that is if you really are tech crew,which I doubt. |
lobey, you've only been gone a little while, and yet you still know nothing.
The authorities haven't stopped the use of jumpseats on the flight deck. Just limited it to those travelling to/from work. So Einstein, it doesn't fix the problem, as you put it, of someone sitting behind us. Besides if it helps someone get to/from work, then great. Perish the thought that cc could help a fellow staff traveller, very selfish as usual. Hey lobey, it might be the travel beneficiary of a fellow cc person that's on the jumpseat! But you wouldn't even want to help one of your own, let alone, the wife of a techie. Thank goodness you've left. Times have changed since the DC4 days! Apology excepted by the way! You're wrong again. BTW, I won't be responding to any of your posts again. You've left, you're a non entity now, and you're always wrong! :E What it does do is give the authority back to the Captain as to the use of jumpseats. Despite what cc think, it is the Captains entire aeroplane, not just the bit at the front. And before any of you want to argue this point, read the CAR's. Yeah, they're the really important things (legal things) that govern aviation, not the galley gossip that make cc think that the cabin is theirs! Because it's not! I could also mention the chain of command which puts the tech crew higher up the chain than the cc, I know hard to believe that the Captain is higher up than the CSM or the CSS! :rolleyes: |
They'll probably just over-sell by a few more..
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Yes, it does appear to be an ill conceived reaction to having staff travel access to the rear flight deck seats removed.
With it seems, little or no thought given to the practicalities, commercial considerations, and/or safety concerns of cabin jump seat use. Typical Qantas really :rolleyes: ___________ Funbags, small dick, big watch ? |
I think it is a good thing.
The seats are a means to giving people travelling with crew somewhere to sit to get on the aircraft. There is nothing to say that after takeoff they couldn't be relocated to an assist jump seat at a door that is away from pax legroom, eg L2 on a 744. Perhaps they could even be relocated to the aft tech crew rest if it is not being used during flight, the high comfort seat at R2, or even the CSM workstation. |
Funbags, small dick, big watch ? Here's a free tip. Your misery is probably the reason you spend a lot of time alone in slip ports. Lighten up, enjoy the job for what it's worth, and broaden your horizons from your limited network. You never know what you might learn, and the friendships you might make. Then again, it may be too late for you. If that is the case then please leave as YOU are the problem with Qantas Long Haul cabin crew. |
What The,
do me a favour. Read two pages of Funbag's posting history and then get back to me about his physical attributes and adornments.:rolleyes:: |
thought this was about jumpseat usage..... any thread involving CC and you can't help yourself but turn it into a slanging match.
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i have been very happy over 25 years to allow my cabin crew rest seats to be used by the family of the operating tech crew or cabin crew on the day. Even on flights where we didnt have bunks we have not left family members behind.
Jump seats are a different story... they are for the operating crew only in my opinion. Should never be used by non operating crew. I dont think that passengers should ever see non crew in those seats. It would also mean that the "passengers" in a crew jumpseat would also get a "flame Orange" life jacket like an operating crew member...and i am surprised that CASA would permit that. Seems to me that the Qantas Chief Pilot has interpreted his ability to make such a ruling without consulting any other stakeholders... perhaps even CASA As i said i am happy where possible to have crew families in the crew rest seats...its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. We all get tired and have a legal entitlement to rest seats but the tech crew never give theirs up |
My only comment would be that it is spare jumpseat usage. As crew are now down to the minimum, there are spare seats in some cases. Now knowing Qantas, unless its a double jumpseat, I am surprised they havent removed them for weight saving......
So bare in mind - the seat is surplus to requirements. I am pretty sure it doesnt have to be there, so whether a staff uses it or not is irrelevant. |
Quote-
"so whether a staff uses it [cabin jump seat] or not is irrelevant." _______ Well spoken [from a position of self interest and ignorance]. |
its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. We all get tired and have a legal entitlement to rest seats but the tech crew never give theirs up In my experience, refusal for a tech crew rest seat happens when the tech crew rest is required for CASA limits, of which there are several complex pages worth to consider, and also when it cannot be occupied for takeoff/landing. It's not just a simple matter of the total tour of duty, and busting them is not an option for us. We have licences which are quite "loseable", remember. In fact not that long ago we operated a 3 pilot crew and all actually agreed to forfeit the crew rest (despite it being specifically set up for our flight) so that a family member could get on. However we first had to check the limitations to ensure that it was not legally required. In my experience the vast majority (yes there are always exceptions) go out of their way to accomodate both tech & cabin crew family members accompanying operating crew. |
Tech and Cabin Crew both have "legal" entitlements to Crew rest seats and bunks.....
Tech crew entitlements come from their EBA's and the CASA regs and the Cabin Crew come solely from their EBA which is also a "legal" entitlement. The cabin crew rest was fought for by strike action in the 1980's and i for one will still show sensible discretion to assist familes of tech and cabin crew when possible. We just have to agree to disagree about the use of crew jumpseats. I think from a marketing perspective its a poor decision. And Twiggs the CSM workstation is not for passengers to sit in. and since the reduction of Cabin crew rest seats with the reconfiguration of the 747 Crew rest under the stairs, those curtained seats at R2 are either work areas for crew setting up carts for meal services or additional crew rest seats for eating meals or resting. I just dont know where some of these idiotic ideas come from... Crew dont all work in a zone of the aircraft where there jumpseat is and when needed to be seated in an emergency all the jumpseats need to be available for operating crew to sit down in an emergency. As i said we will have to agree to disagree but i think the people that have paid extra for the exit row seats would not be happy having a passenger facing them for the flight like they are in a railway carraige, nor having the additional space that they have paid for encroached by an airline employees travel accessory. Buy back up tickets like all the other Qantas Staff have to do when they travel or get the respective unions to negotiate some sort of "firm" travel if accompanying a crew member on a duty but stay away from operating crew jumpseats. |
Ditch. what can i say.. Selective quoting is the sincerest form of flattery
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Seems to me that the Qantas Chief Pilot has interpreted his ability to make such a ruling without consulting any other stakeholders... perhaps even CASA |
Usually I agree with your posts Pegasus, but to call these ideas idiotic is idiotic.
Why can a CSM workstation not be used during flight? It regularly gets used now when staff using cabin crew rest need to vacate the seats while crew are having their breaks. It has a seat belt just as the high comfort seat does, and providing crew are OK with it, why shouldn't it be used during flight? |
It appears QF may be following the BA policy where the surplus 'jump seats' are available to all staff. The BA staff travel website has a box you tick if you are willing to travel in a 'jump seat' if offered.
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I too think it is a good idea, as long as some very clear communications are given to the CC world. So far, we have received nothing to advise on the procedure to follow. Yes, the FSO is in place, but the average CC does not have a great deal of awareness of these, and would never see one.
I personally have been helped THAT many times by generous flight crew I have lost count. A big thank you!!!!!! I like to think we can help out our collegues, by allowing the use of cc rest seats where possible, but as has been said, this option gives control back to the captain( yes I am aware of the chain of command and CASR91) which is as it should be. What I can aggree with Peg on is, the look in the cabin is not brilliant, as it is true we are always trying to get pax off those seats..... In the end, I hope that common sense prevails....too optimistic????:) |
Funbags..I'm glad you will not be responding to my posts because your replies are to be honest not much of a challenge and are less than astute.They show a basic inadequacy that belie your understanding of aviation and life in general....
This is about the use of CC jumpseats by staff which I disagree with on a safety basis.....You cannot escape talking about the flight deck for even one post and this shows how myopic you really are... By the way I was under the impression that we were talking about operating crew family members....and those were the staff pax that i was saying are unable to use the flight deck .....Einstein:yuk: |
Cathay have had a similar system for quite a long time too. I recall in '99 on a very full CX flight HKG-SYD talking to a F/O who was traveling in one of the 'assist' positions. It didn't seem to be a major drama.
...its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. However, I can always review my opinion on the matter and start refusing it now. I'll be sure to mention you as the reason. :E |
Keg,
There is a difference between tech crew, crew rest seat and jump seat which I believe is the point Peg747 was making. When cabin crew facilitate staff uplift on full aircraft they do so by giving up their crew rest seat rather than in the case of pilots, an unused jump seat. But of course you knew all that anyway........ |
Where's my popcorn & coke!
This is getting good! :E |
by all means do so Keg....
I am asked for cabin crew rest seats very often and have never refused anyone..tech or cabin crew.... But by all means you can over react to whatever you like Keg... obviously great leadership and maturity displayed there... hopefully you are not in actual command of anything as that sort of reaction doesnt display any maturity whatsoever... Guess thats to be expected of people not recruited for maturity or personal skills.... notwithstanding your immaturity i will still continue to assist tech and cabin crew families with the use of the seats that are under my control (CC rest seats) subject to the views of the other operating crew....I am just saying i dont agree with the use of jump seats... by all means KEG.....give the tech crew rest to your families when not in use... they are yours to do as you wish as are the CC rest seats ours.... Just because i have never seen tech crew rest seats used in my 25 years experience doesnt mean it has never happened.... But i have certainly seen CC seats requested and agreed to regularly....if you decide not to offer your seats "when they are not in use" in future because of something i have posted i would suggest you are rather sad |
I have been told by a fairly senior CSM that in the last EBA one of the 'gives' for the CC was they no longer had the right to vote on the rest seats..ie it was Captains choice. I know the FAM still states that it is up to the CC, and when I queried him on this he said that QF were yet to catch up with the new provisions. Can someone confirm or deny this?
Not a wind up, not trying to get anyones nose out of joint.. Cheers |
Astroboy55, I'm afraid you were being wound up, or that senior CSM doesn't know what they are talking about.
It is a cabin crew decision. And as far as I know, it's not a vote. If one person disagrees, then it's no. Pegasus will confirm. |
The CSM yu spoke to was wrong....has nothing to do with the EBA and never has.... its Qantas Policy and in fact the position of the crew is actually strengthened
CCOM states clearly that Cabin crew determine who get the seats. It must be unanimous of all Operating Crew. If one crew member (cabin) says no then no one can use the rest seats. The role of the Captain is firstly to be advised that the Cabin Crew have offered the seats... The captain will then determine whether that fits with the weight and balance and fuel requirements. If the captain determines that by offering the seats there are no implacations for the Aircraft then he/she will advise ground staff that the use of the seats is authorised. It is the CSM that will then advise which passengers ( by name) who will be allowed to use the seats. If the passengers are subsequently offered a passenger seat and the crew seats are not required by them, the ground staff "may" approach the CSM to see if the seats are available for anyone else and that will then be either authorised or denied by the CSM. That is what is contained in Qantas Policy as negotiated by the FAAA in the CCOM..... The seats are at ALL times under the control of the operating cabin crew who are the only ones that can determine who may use them. The captain as the PIC has the ultimate say in whether they may be used or not but NOT who can use them. |
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