DOTARS changes jump seat requirements
 

A new directive out to QF from DOTARS that only those on 'duty' travel are permitted to access the flight deck jump seats. No leisure travel at all. Commuting crew are counted as 'duty' for this purpose. It's not yet official policy but I reckon the FSO is being drafted as I type this out.

Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.

[rant]

The DOTARS directive seems to be consistent with the past practise though. As long as we appear to be doing something- even if it has no tangible effect on security- then we can plead that we're doing the 'right thing' because it's 'something'. It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities. Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!

Morons. How my missus or kids are more of a security threat than the other employee who needs to travel to Melbourne for 'duty' (and just happens to be publishing terrorist stuff on the internet in his spare time) I have no friggin idea. :ugh:

[/rant]

Why it is that a pilot (or anyone else permitted to access the flight deck on duty) is permitted access on duty but not at any other time has got me flummoxed.

Have DJ crew had anything similar come down range yet?

I don't think CASA should be allowed to jump, they cause undue stress to the operating crew and thus have a negative effect on the safety of flight. :E

Im not even going to get started on the security screening stuff :mad:

Something needs to be done or this crap will continue.

Whilst it will cause pain for commuters - I think all crew should impose a ban on all jump seat riders. When planes can't fly because commuters can't make it, then the company may step into bat for us. If QANTAS wants it changed, it will be done.

Well, the rule makers aren't brain surgeons for very good reasons!!!:rolleyes:

"Serenity now!":mad:

It really sucks that this is happening, however i dont think commuters should be given special treatment. If you choose to commute, thats your problem. If it looks tight, then in my opinion, you should have to buy a full fare ticket (unless flight deck access is made available to ALL staff travel tickets again...)

With respect blueloo, i think the company would sooner drag you in and give you a lecture about your responsibilities rather than try and change it all!!

Yes

VB have also incorporated the new rules into their Flight Deck access policy.

Some VERY pi**ed off crew!

I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.

How DOTARS could possibly believe that having a third pilot in the cockpit is a security issue is beyond me.

They would rather have a 19 year old 40 Kg size 2 princess "guarding" the open cockpit door than having a 100 Kg SEATED pilot stopping an intruder.

You physically can not get into the 737 Cockpit if the JS is being used!

IDIOTS.

All Pilots and Cabin crew (in QF at least) do security training. That and a valid ASIC make them an asset, not a liability should the worst happen.
Perhaps a concerted campaign along those lines should be run by AusALPA?

Ad-astra
Been a few times in history when the extra crew member was a worthwhile asset!

Keg

It makes a joke of the ASIC card in my view. We all have them, and get screened the same, yet...if you asked me to join you on the deck of your B767, that would be a bad thing! :=

So is your ASIC card more secure than mine??

When will the stupidity end?? The industry has lost a number of valuable resources who got the sh!ts with all this BS and retired. Now they just want to p!$$ off those remaining with more idiotic rulings.

Why not suggest you will all go on strike.....

More pedantic crap from Dotars (or whatever the :mad: they're called this week), just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier. Give it another year and it'll be a requirement for flight crews and rampies to work in the nude so they can't hide weapons.

I think there needs to be more of this. The trouble is, aviation workers all complain here and to each other, but it rarely reaches the public arena.

The recent aviation security screening review listed a surprisingly high level of public support for the current procedures, and I have a hunch that the department is merely looking at that and saying 'well, everyone's cool with it, the staff are just whingers' :ugh:.

They are yet another department that seems incapable of risk-assessment, discretion and common sense.

There's a limit to what we can achieve as individuals, but if the various employees' associations could get cracking with this we might get some common sense back in the equation.

Just started in Singapore as well. Used to be able to travel on the jumpseat if in uniform and approved by the chief pilot. Now forget it :(

It must be because aircrew are exempt from LAG restrictions in the US but not here.

As usual Dotars and the AG's dept can't tell the difference between Aviation Security and Aviation Safety.

The former does not guarantee the latter and the latter is paramount.

The chairwarmers that think they are doing the former will not be satisfied until we all board aircraft stark naked carrying nothing and with a BarCode tattood on our foreheads containing all our travel details and passport/visa stuff.

tipsy
:yuk:furball:yuk::yuk:

the new regs make an interesting contrast to the QF policy (ie duty travel)

None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.

Jump seats - the new about to be introduced powers for the ATSB that will have us all writing reports for a pax whose bag fell out of a locker (will gladly comply as I rekon they will be so swamped that they will abandon the idea after 1 week)

Of course when things do go pear shaped the good Minister can confidently claim: ......."I have requested an immediate report from the Dept as to how this [insert tragedy] occurred"

Stand by for the CASA reforms.......

Welcome to the nanny country - unless you are flying under a foreign AOC then it's a case of ....."do as you please"

AT :E

Exactly but you can put that description to every single department in Australia also!

While our economies lurch from crisis to crisis our so called departments continue to make irrelevant useless decisions in all industries! The reason? Too many idiots and lawyers in middle management positions! Meanwhile even though there is some red tape in Asia overall they have a more practical approach and that is why they will take over from the old western civilisation. We sit here crapping on about almost useless information while they are doing the real work.

If I was on an aircraft I would much prefer there was a jumpseat rider there because one of the pilots knows them well rather that a so called "duty" traveller rules that fall under the guidelines of some stupid DOTARS dept.

DOTARS

Destructive, Overbearing, Terrible, Aviation, Regulatory, Service.

:ugh:

Nope DOTARS did this to us 'foreign carriers' coupla years back.:ugh:

Might I suggest that everyone give "feedback" to DITRDLG (ex DOTARS ;)) via their website Website Feedback .

Never has the department been more out of touch with the coal face.

If we can get some of the passionate people here on Pprune to aim their logic and professionalism at the Dept, just maybe the message just might get to the Ring Masters running the circus. Then again there's always ACA, TT, Lateline, Aust. Story., QandA, The730Report, FourCorners, or maybe I should get The Chaser onto it.

As a classic example of the useless policy of ballitic residue testing crew, a few years ago the guy I was flying with was pulled over for a ballistics swab check in Melbourne. My learned colleague said that he was more than happy to be swabbed but stated that "its a bit silly carrying something to get control of the aircraft, when I already have control of the aircraft". To which the highly educated, highly trained lass procalaimed to us that "well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "

QED. :ugh:

you are all out of touch as DOTARS does not exist.

Try the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, or DITRDLG.

Except the poster above you, TE3.:}

Does it also mean that somoneone who sets up an airline, ie owns he business. but is not a pilot cant ride up front.

What if he were to say, to DOTARS, I own it, its my aeroplane, I;ll sit where I want.

Keg, I dare say Captain Al Haynes from the Sioux City DC10 crash might agree with you as well. But then again what would he know hey?

CASA and DOTARS are all about ticking boxes and pretending to do things about safety when in reality all they do is make our jobs harder and make rules that a 5 year old could work a way around.

I've been going on about this one for years and it has to be the most obvious example of the people in these useless government departments simply not giving a sh!t about anything but staying in a job.

It would be good if AFAP AIPA and the TWU could unite on fronts like this and say "enoughs enough Mr. CASA/DOTARS (what ever your name is) you don't know what you are doing get out of the way".

Rant over.

I was paxing on a flight a few weeks ago and a couple of DOTARs blokes came on board for a "surprize" inspection. One of the things they wanted/needed to check was the crew meals. So seals were broken to show them that there was no knife concealed in the box. :uhoh:

This no-one-in-the-jump-seat thing is the number one topic in the Crew Room at the moment and is rediculous. FOr example if a pilot is commuting down to, say, Sydney and will take the aircraft back as PIC, then one way he's bad, and the other way he's good :cool:

SOme pencil neck is trying to make a name for himself in Canberra and this should stop right now!

What is this obsession with riding in the jumpseat?

Pilot's up the front. Passengers down the back!

Pretty simple really!

Well, I have left my 2 bobs worth on their website.

Maybe the unions REALLY need to pull together on this as a united front. This is why we are paying membership fee's guys!

(A little heavy handed, but if the unions/pilots said we weren't going to fly an airliner until the goverment fixed this ridiculous situation, im sure they wouldn't wan't the countries air system grinding to a halt in this economic climate.)

Unbelieveable. :ugh:

PS Capt Fathom...agreed, but when the jumpseat is your only chance of getting on a jet using your staff travel at times its invaluable. Not many perks some see it these days, but staff travel/commuting can be. On the flip side, its the fact they are TAKING the power off the skipper of the use of the jumpseat.

My understanding is that the Captain still has ultimate authority of who is allowed to sit in the jumpseat.

If the Union said not to fly because of the jumpseat issue I think you would find that not too many people would do it. Talk to the guys from 89 as they are particularly gun shy on that one.

it's taken 2 pages but Jaded has hit the nail on the head.

The pilot unions (particularly the QANTAS one) seem pretty powerful, how many other unions check work patterns before they are allocated to staff? But then why when it comes to lobbying the government and getting media attention do they seem to fail?

They should (as much as I hate to say it, as I truly hate them :}) get some ideas from the Teachers Union, the ACTU and the AMA who always seem to be in the news.

Yes DJ have had the same information 'duty' travel now only allowed to fly in the cockpit, nobody on staff travel anymore, Ive flown jump once about 2 years ago from ADL-MEL, great experience.

These types are generally airline pilot wannabees that couldn't be because they never had the balls to go out and do it.

Somewhere in the world everyday a new rule comes out to take away a condition or perk that we used to have.

I hadn't been overseas for a while so imagine my surprise when i was given real cutlery! Australia: we really do like to make things as difficult as we can. There is a funpolice member on every corner.

This reeks of a bureaucrat in DOTARS (rolls off the tongue much better than DITRDLG) taking up a senior position and trying to get noticed.

It will be his attempt to "stamp" a major decision on his reign. Naturally when you do this, the actual rationale, practicality, and any measurable effectiveness is completely unimportant. All that matters is that everyone knows about it and how you pushed it through.

I would love to see the documentation detailing the arguments used to institute this policy.

hehehehehhahahahah :}

If that is the way DOTARS/DITRDLG think, then why don't they just ban all pilots from anywhere near an aircraft ? :ok:

Better still, just ban all aviation activity full stop. :ok:

:mad:en morons

I'm sure it has crossed DITRDLG and CASAs mind...

Jump seat just remember fedex
 

My view would be to have only operating crew access to flight deck, and jump seat only to be occupied when operationally required i.e line check, training SO etc.

You only have to cast your mind back to the fedex flight that Auburn Callaway (a Fed ex pilot riding in the jump seat) attacked the crew in an effort to gain control of the aircraft in an attempt try to spear dive it into the fedex premises at Memphis. He was about to get the sack from fedex.

In those days he was allowed to take on board a fishing spear gun and hammer which he belted the pilots heads in with!

Still the pilots gained control by use of restraint whilst injured and some aerobatics of the DC10.

After this incident FEDEX still allow employees to travel in the jump seat on or off duty for their personal travel.

Food for thought

Regards

Karl

Karl, I see your point but I think the spear gun and hammer were as much of an issue. A person in the cabin could wreak havoc with those items as well, although not as much as in the cockpit. A Flight Attendant visiting the flight deck for operational reasons could also go nuts in a similar fashion.
Additionally, that was one jumpseater out of how many zillions since the dawn of aviation?

IMO there seems to be a serious lack of risk assessment and a serious surplus of 'what might happen, if there were a zombie invasion and all the computers failed and the sun went black...' type thinking from the Government, while passenger trains and public buildings such as museums still have no screening whatsoever, despite larger numbers of people congregating.

I have a hunch that DwhateverRS won't stop until all the fun and rational discretion are squeezed out of aviation. :sad:

It is a good point you make karl. And the reality is that the industry is trying people's patience more and more so I guess you never know. But in that case what is to stop the person doing what they want on short final whilst in the seat?

Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.

Warning: [rant mode on]
 

How many serious threats have been thwarted since the increased aviation security? For that matter, how many before 9/11? My guess is absolutely none, because we would have seen a congratulatory two page colour spread in the recent report. Sure, plenty of weapons have been removed from dodgy people, but that hardly justifies the increasing level of craziness as the pre 9/11 measures (with some tweaking) did this adequately. IMO violent drunks / spacked out druggies are a far more tangible risk to aviation, as hardly a month goes by without some violent dork being carted off a flight in chains by the AFP. So why not ban alcohol on flights, as the Indians do (rhetorical question, disarm your flamethrowers:ouch:)? Because the government is not serious about aviation security. It’s far less trouble to come up with inane regulations that only affect aviation staff, a disjointed and quiet minority.

Australia does not have a serious terrorist threat. It has a potential terrorist threat (as anyone does these days) but it’s nothing compared to Turkey, Spain or Northern Ireland. In those countries (I’ve been to two of them) people entering shopping centres are routinely scanned, fast trains and museums have X ray screening and so on. If DwhateverRS are so concerned about Threats, why have we seen none of this here? An airliner carries a maximum of 530 people (or whatever they can cram into the super guppy these days) plus casualties on the ground. My local Westfield has a food court with greater capacity than that, and an entrance you could drive a semitrailer packed with explosives through. Where is the risk mitigation there? Are people removing their shoes to gain entry?

The government keep banging on about aviation security while they make our working lives harder and more dismal, yet they are happy to leave screening to poorly trained, often subnormal contractors supplied by profit focused companies. If they were serious about aviation security they would have brought the whole sad mess back under government control on 9/12, but they didn’t, and they aren’t. They just make pedantic, crappy decisions from the ivory tower in Canberra.

Unfortunately, the sort of droids that join these departments (speaking as a reformed droid) can’t see the forest for the microscopic bark analysis. That’s all cool until a tree falls on their heads, when instead of removing it and buying a chainsaw they’ll commission yet another expensive 300 page report that proves nothing and goes nowhere. :ugh:

This will be the next thing to go. Any crew meals/drinks will have to be placed in the flight deck before departure and under no circumstances will there be access to/from the flight deck during flight. We'll be issued with an empty coke bottle to pee in and the crew rest will then be a swag on the floor at the back of the flight deck.:ugh:

Didn't seem to be of any use in the Q400 accident in Buffalo a few months ago.

I think it fair to say that the most frustrating thing in the industry is the inconsistancies. In the USA you can, in Australia you can't. In Cairns you need to remove your aerosole cans for inspection, in Sydney you don't. In Australia you need to remove your laptop from your bag but you can lave the cables in. In Europe you need to remove the laptop and the cables and in USA you don't need to remove either. Flight crew need to get screened, ground crew don't.

My favourite however is for us Regional guys. If the first sector after an overnight is from an unsecured port (ie Wagga/Gladstone) after we have landed in Sydney/Brisbane, the pax disembarked, we are required to take our overnight bag only (flight bag can remain in the aircraft) and walk unsupervised across the apron into the terminal and through security before we can go back to our aircraft and operate the next sectors.:ugh:

yeah you could have a slot in the door that you push the meals thru :ugh:.

What about the handful of pilots that have attempted suicide with the aid of said aircraft in the past?

I know, let's ban everyone from the flightdeck!!! :rolleyes:

Just think of the weight saving! HUGE saving in greenhouse gas emissions! No need for an extra two crew meals! No troublesome techies to get in the way of cabin service! Everyone is happy and the world will be a better place!:ok:

Now why didn't one of those shiny pants people in Canberra think of that???:D

Your Kidding right? :sad:

That is even more stupid than a Wooden Barbeque..:ugh: