DOTARS changes jump seat requirements
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DOTARS changes jump seat requirements
A new directive out to QF from DOTARS that only those on 'duty' travel are permitted to access the flight deck jump seats. No leisure travel at all. Commuting crew are counted as 'duty' for this purpose. It's not yet official policy but I reckon the FSO is being drafted as I type this out.
Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.
[rant]
The DOTARS directive seems to be consistent with the past practise though. As long as we appear to be doing something- even if it has no tangible effect on security- then we can plead that we're doing the 'right thing' because it's 'something'. It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities. Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!
Morons. How my missus or kids are more of a security threat than the other employee who needs to travel to Melbourne for 'duty' (and just happens to be publishing terrorist stuff on the internet in his spare time) I have no friggin idea.
[/rant]
Why it is that a pilot (or anyone else permitted to access the flight deck on duty) is permitted access on duty but not at any other time has got me flummoxed.
Have DJ crew had anything similar come down range yet?
Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.
[rant]
The DOTARS directive seems to be consistent with the past practise though. As long as we appear to be doing something- even if it has no tangible effect on security- then we can plead that we're doing the 'right thing' because it's 'something'. It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities. Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!
Morons. How my missus or kids are more of a security threat than the other employee who needs to travel to Melbourne for 'duty' (and just happens to be publishing terrorist stuff on the internet in his spare time) I have no friggin idea.
[/rant]
Why it is that a pilot (or anyone else permitted to access the flight deck on duty) is permitted access on duty but not at any other time has got me flummoxed.
Have DJ crew had anything similar come down range yet?
I don't think CASA should be allowed to jump, they cause undue stress to the operating crew and thus have a negative effect on the safety of flight. 
Im not even going to get started on the security screening stuff
Im not even going to get started on the security screening stuff
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Something needs to be done or this crap will continue.
Whilst it will cause pain for commuters - I think all crew should impose a ban on all jump seat riders. When planes can't fly because commuters can't make it, then the company may step into bat for us. If QANTAS wants it changed, it will be done.
Whilst it will cause pain for commuters - I think all crew should impose a ban on all jump seat riders. When planes can't fly because commuters can't make it, then the company may step into bat for us. If QANTAS wants it changed, it will be done.
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It really sucks that this is happening, however i dont think commuters should be given special treatment. If you choose to commute, thats your problem. If it looks tight, then in my opinion, you should have to buy a full fare ticket (unless flight deck access is made available to ALL staff travel tickets again...)
With respect blueloo, i think the company would sooner drag you in and give you a lecture about your responsibilities rather than try and change it all!!
With respect blueloo, i think the company would sooner drag you in and give you a lecture about your responsibilities rather than try and change it all!!
Yes
VB have also incorporated the new rules into their Flight Deck access policy.
Some VERY pi**ed off crew!
I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.
How DOTARS could possibly believe that having a third pilot in the cockpit is a security issue is beyond me.
They would rather have a 19 year old 40 Kg size 2 princess "guarding" the open cockpit door than having a 100 Kg SEATED pilot stopping an intruder.
You physically can not get into the 737 Cockpit if the JS is being used!
IDIOTS.
VB have also incorporated the new rules into their Flight Deck access policy.
Some VERY pi**ed off crew!
I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.
How DOTARS could possibly believe that having a third pilot in the cockpit is a security issue is beyond me.
They would rather have a 19 year old 40 Kg size 2 princess "guarding" the open cockpit door than having a 100 Kg SEATED pilot stopping an intruder.
You physically can not get into the 737 Cockpit if the JS is being used!
IDIOTS.
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All Pilots and Cabin crew (in QF at least) do security training. That and a valid ASIC make them an asset, not a liability should the worst happen.
Perhaps a concerted campaign along those lines should be run by AusALPA?
Perhaps a concerted campaign along those lines should be run by AusALPA?
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Ad-astra
Been a few times in history when the extra crew member was a worthwhile asset!
Keg
It makes a joke of the ASIC card in my view. We all have them, and get screened the same, yet...if you asked me to join you on the deck of your B767, that would be a bad thing!
So is your ASIC card more secure than mine??
When will the stupidity end?? The industry has lost a number of valuable resources who got the sh!ts with all this BS and retired. Now they just want to p!$$ off those remaining with more idiotic rulings.
Why not suggest you will all go on strike.....
Been a few times in history when the extra crew member was a worthwhile asset!
Keg
It makes a joke of the ASIC card in my view. We all have them, and get screened the same, yet...if you asked me to join you on the deck of your B767, that would be a bad thing!
So is your ASIC card more secure than mine??
When will the stupidity end?? The industry has lost a number of valuable resources who got the sh!ts with all this BS and retired. Now they just want to p!$$ off those remaining with more idiotic rulings.
Why not suggest you will all go on strike.....
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More pedantic crap from Dotars (or whatever the they're called this week), just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier. Give it another year and it'll be a requirement for flight crews and rampies to work in the nude so they can't hide weapons.
I think there needs to be more of this. The trouble is, aviation workers all complain here and to each other, but it rarely reaches the public arena.
The recent aviation security screening review listed a surprisingly high level of public support for the current procedures, and I have a hunch that the department is merely looking at that and saying 'well, everyone's cool with it, the staff are just whingers'.
They are yet another department that seems incapable of risk-assessment, discretion and common sense.
There's a limit to what we can achieve as individuals, but if the various employees' associations could get cracking with this we might get some common sense back in the equation.
they're called this week), just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier. Give it another year and it'll be a requirement for flight crews and rampies to work in the nude so they can't hide weapons.
I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.
The recent aviation security screening review listed a surprisingly high level of public support for the current procedures, and I have a hunch that the department is merely looking at that and saying 'well, everyone's cool with it, the staff are just whingers'
. They are yet another department that seems incapable of risk-assessment, discretion and common sense.
There's a limit to what we can achieve as individuals, but if the various employees' associations could get cracking with this we might get some common sense back in the equation.
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Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.
Last edited by twiggs; 29th May 2009 at 07:33.
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As usual Dotars and the AG's dept can't tell the difference between Aviation Security and Aviation Safety.
The former does not guarantee the latter and the latter is paramount.
The chairwarmers that think they are doing the former will not be satisfied until we all board aircraft stark naked carrying nothing and with a BarCode tattood on our foreheads containing all our travel details and passport/visa stuff.
tipsy
furball
The former does not guarantee the latter and the latter is paramount.
The chairwarmers that think they are doing the former will not be satisfied until we all board aircraft stark naked carrying nothing and with a BarCode tattood on our foreheads containing all our travel details and passport/visa stuff.
tipsy
furball
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the new regs make an interesting contrast to the QF policy (ie duty travel)
None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.
Jump seats - the new about to be introduced powers for the ATSB that will have us all writing reports for a pax whose bag fell out of a locker (will gladly comply as I rekon they will be so swamped that they will abandon the idea after 1 week)
Of course when things do go pear shaped the good Minister can confidently claim: ......."I have requested an immediate report from the Dept as to how this [insert tragedy] occurred"
Stand by for the CASA reforms.......
Welcome to the nanny country - unless you are flying under a foreign AOC then it's a case of ....."do as you please"
AT
None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.
Jump seats - the new about to be introduced powers for the ATSB that will have us all writing reports for a pax whose bag fell out of a locker (will gladly comply as I rekon they will be so swamped that they will abandon the idea after 1 week)
Of course when things do go pear shaped the good Minister can confidently claim: ......."I have requested an immediate report from the Dept as to how this [insert tragedy] occurred"
Stand by for the CASA reforms.......
Welcome to the nanny country - unless you are flying under a foreign AOC then it's a case of ....."do as you please"
AT
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None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.
While our economies lurch from crisis to crisis our so called departments continue to make irrelevant useless decisions in all industries! The reason? Too many idiots and lawyers in middle management positions! Meanwhile even though there is some red tape in Asia overall they have a more practical approach and that is why they will take over from the old western civilisation. We sit here crapping on about almost useless information while they are doing the real work.
If I was on an aircraft I would much prefer there was a jumpseat rider there because one of the pilots knows them well rather that a so called "duty" traveller rules that fall under the guidelines of some stupid DOTARS dept.
DOTARS
Destructive, Overbearing, Terrible, Aviation, Regulatory, Service.
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Might I suggest that everyone give "feedback" to DITRDLG (ex DOTARS 
) via their website Website Feedback .
Never has the department been more out of touch with the coal face.
If we can get some of the passionate people here on Pprune to aim their logic and professionalism at the Dept, just maybe the message just might get to the Ring Masters running the circus. Then again there's always ACA, TT, Lateline, Aust. Story., QandA, The730Report, FourCorners, or maybe I should get The Chaser onto it.
As a classic example of the useless policy of ballitic residue testing crew, a few years ago the guy I was flying with was pulled over for a ballistics swab check in Melbourne. My learned colleague said that he was more than happy to be swabbed but stated that "its a bit silly carrying something to get control of the aircraft, when I already have control of the aircraft". To which the highly educated, highly trained lass procalaimed to us that "well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "
QED.
) via their website Website Feedback .Never has the department been more out of touch with the coal face.
If we can get some of the passionate people here on Pprune to aim their logic and professionalism at the Dept, just maybe the message just might get to the Ring Masters running the circus. Then again there's always ACA, TT, Lateline, Aust. Story., QandA, The730Report, FourCorners, or maybe I should get The Chaser onto it.
As a classic example of the useless policy of ballitic residue testing crew, a few years ago the guy I was flying with was pulled over for a ballistics swab check in Melbourne. My learned colleague said that he was more than happy to be swabbed but stated that "its a bit silly carrying something to get control of the aircraft, when I already have control of the aircraft". To which the highly educated, highly trained lass procalaimed to us that "well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "
QED.
Last edited by CSTGuy; 29th May 2009 at 10:17.
Does it also mean that somoneone who sets up an airline, ie owns he business. but is not a pilot cant ride up front.
What if he were to say, to DOTARS, I own it, its my aeroplane, I;ll sit where I want.
What if he were to say, to DOTARS, I own it, its my aeroplane, I;ll sit where I want.
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Keg, I dare say Captain Al Haynes from the Sioux City DC10 crash might agree with you as well. But then again what would he know hey?
CASA and DOTARS are all about ticking boxes and pretending to do things about safety when in reality all they do is make our jobs harder and make rules that a 5 year old could work a way around.
I've been going on about this one for years and it has to be the most obvious example of the people in these useless government departments simply not giving a sh!t about anything but staying in a job.
It would be good if AFAP AIPA and the TWU could unite on fronts like this and say "enoughs enough Mr. CASA/DOTARS (what ever your name is) you don't know what you are doing get out of the way".
Rant over.
It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities
Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!
It would be good if AFAP AIPA and the TWU could unite on fronts like this and say "enoughs enough Mr. CASA/DOTARS (what ever your name is) you don't know what you are doing get out of the way".
Rant over.