so sq have 1/3 less management, up to 22 crew on a 747-400. no wonder they get such a big bonus and highest ratings in cabin service. when mini-me gets in wait for the broom to sweep through management. twiggs, this is why we call you 'the visitors'. hope you didn't throw out the situations vacant notice in yesterdays newspaper..... good luck!

indamiddle....
You've hit the nail on the head and it's something the office and it's spokesperson Twiggs does not admit or even want to talk about.

It's almost impossible to compete with another airline if they have more crew in the cabin.The surveys tell us that other airlines cabin crew are more visible....the simple reason is that there are more of them.You cannot deny that if there are 4 or 5 more crew at least then the crew presence in the cabin is more pronounced.The passengers notice it and the surveys reflect it.

Other airlines have more crew ,less management and get better survey results.Yet company reps like twiggs and other office staff continue to talk about crew costs.

The irony of this is one of Twiggs most famous lines...."it's not the money that's important it's the destinations"

I don't know where you guys get your info but 17 is closer to the correct figure, and we now have 16.
Not much difference really, although it really means nothing unless you take into account the p-j-y ratio.
I find it very funny that because I correct the inaccurate information you lot post here you think I am the devil.
Just like lobe trying to rewrite the physics books, you can write all the crap on this forum that you want, but the truth will never change.

Again we get the usual misinformation and obtuse replies from the office representative Twiggs.

You must have drawn the short straw to work in the office on Sunday Twiggs but maybe that's why you are online as it's fairly quiet on the Weekends.

They never admit anything such as other airlines having more crew and only complain to you that other airlines crew are more visible......pretty obvious really when there are more of them but we are talking of twiggs and the office:ugh:

If they can't understand the simple fact that more crew in the cabin equates to increased passenger satisfaction then how on earth could you expect Twiggs to understand something more complex like physics.
Probably the only really correct and factual statement you have made twiggs.The same can be said of the attitude in the office and the reason of this thread.
However,you should have added that it will always be slanted and coloured by those who don't want the truth to be known.

Arguing that we can't provide as good a service as our competitors because we have less crew is pointless exercise.
Whilst most asian carriers do have slightly more crew, the real advantage they have is less rules governing rest periods and OH&S.
We are very lucky as workers in Australia that we do have such protections for the employee, but that does not remove the fact that other airlines exploit this to their advantage.

The post by by mohican went right over the head of most here and really was very sound advice.
The one thing we have to do if we are to protect our conditions is to prove we are worthy of them, and to try to justify having a bad attitude just because management are telling us to put a badge in a particular position is insane.
There is no justification for having a bad attitude in the service industry, no matter what wage you are on.
Now the posts by RENURPP and orangputi may be true if they travel in economy as I believe that is where Qantas Cabin Service Priorities are wrong.
I believe our service in J and P is excellent, although our hard product will never be as good as our competitors.
Ordinary and her gang do need to be booted because this crap about doing a 4 hour service in economy, just so that we are forced to be in the cabin, is ridiculous.
The end result is that the whole aircraft is being tied up until that epic is over and consequently we are less able to satisfy individual passenger requests, which is why the impression of unavailibilty is felt.

Hey lobey great to see you back mate and I laughed when I saw your point about it being quiet in the office.
It must be a sluggish in the fishbowl today.I bet they even managed to finish the Sunday papers and chuck a few clause 11's around as well.I gotta laugh about the story twiggsy girl puts out about blaming OH&S and crew rest for the idea pax have of fewer crew with us.
The reason twiggsy girl is that there are less crew.
Only the office would say that twiggsy because it would mean admitting they are wrong.
Simple questions Twiggsy girl.
1: DO other airlines on our runs have more crew than we do or not?
2: Since we all know the answer is yes then DO the pax see more crew in the cabin than with us?
3: DO the pax get drinks faster,meals quicker,call bells answered faster because they have more crew in the cabin?
YES,YES & YES because it's hard to go head to head with a competitor with more players.It would be like a football team fielding a game with a few players less than the opposition.The coach keeps coming up with ideas to make it look like you have as many players as the other team but all the people in the grandstand can see whats going on.
No one is being fooled by the antics of the office twiggs and as someone else said your on a hiding to nothing if you keep trying to shift the attention away from this.
Nobody is saying that crew have a bad attitude because of bad management although it's good to see you admit the management is bad.What we are saying is that crew would be in a better frame of mind if they were not hounded by the office goons for some insignificant detail.If you think the pax are worried or even notice a name badge a cm or 2 different to the runway guide you are deluded.
Years ago the crew I was on swapped name badges with the girls wearing the boys badges and so on.Not one pax noticed or said anything which say's it all.But you and the rest of the office would have stood us all down and given us clause 11's for having fun.
It's also typical of you and other office types to jump in and say our crew have a bad attitiude.
Why is that twiggsy girl? why can't it be?
No,although a 4 hour saga in y/c is bad for the pax because they really want to just get their food and go to sleep or watch a movie instead of waiting a million years between a drink and a meal and then a cuppa.
The real problem about the impression of more crew on other airlines is that there are more of them on other airlines ,pure and simple and yes insane as you put it.

just watching from the sidelines
 

having a cup of tea then this rubbish is posted. Twiggsy says
"Whilst most asian carriers do have slightly more crew, the real advantage they have is less rules governing rest periods and OH&S."
now i really know you have no idea what the state of affairs are with our competitors. i wont go into details but lets put it into a simple sentence, which you may or may not understand.They are all governed by their local civil aviation regulations(which covers a lot of the above mentioned).:sad:

So tell me then mrpaxing, why is that EK crew do not even have crew rest seats on their flight between asia and Australia?

Quote- "the real advantage they [Asian carriers] have is less rules governing rest periods and OH&S."

____________

Twiggs,

I have a rhetorical question for you.

Whilst it's understood that you do work in the office are you REALLY this cretinous????:ugh:

Tell us what "advantage" [your word] Qantas would have, had it the ability to DENY it's cabin crew a safe working environment or a seat to sit on to achieve rest.??

Speedbird,
it is only people like lobe who doesn't like people disagreeing with him that started the rumour that I work in the office.
I don't.
Advantage, well maybe I chose the wrong word, as you seem to think I think it is a good thing.
I'm stating fact, that's all.
When you see f/a's from other carriers pushing carts around on their own and not having a break on an 8 hour sector, you will realise how good we have it.
Then maybe you will realise my point, and that is we cannot afford to let any managerial bullying tactic get to us and let it affect how we treat the passengers onboard.
Most of us don't, but the fools that get on here and try to justify such behaviour really should not be in the service industry.
The people who do have attitude are few, but it is those few who give us all a bad name.

By the way Speedbird, you never did tell us how many hours SQ crew fly to earn the same as our QCCA crew do.

Quote- "my point........ is we cannot afford to let any managerial bullying tactic get to us and let it affect how we treat the passengers onboard."


Do you understand the relationship between cause and effect?

________

You are also implying that Singapore Airlines crew work longer hours than QF crew do for their [last years] joining wage/package of $60 000 SIN +.

Do They?

Speedbirdhouse post 62

Those other airlines mentioned are 5 Star !!! QED

Firstly they do not earn $60000 per year.
The figure $3500 per month is including all allowances.
Their basic pay is close to $1000 per month.
Secondly yes, they work much more hours than QAL crew, probably more like QCCA's maximum, and they only get credited hours blocks-blocks, ie no pay prior to push back or after arrival.

Lets break it down for you shall we Twiggs.

Package for brand new Singapore Airlines Cabin Crew-

$3500 X 12 = 42000

Plus Medical benefits

Plus Dental benefits

Plus 1 free return ticket to anywhere they fly.

Plus last year's bonus paid to all staff calculated at just over 6 months pay.

Looks like a $60 000 + package to me and substantially more than what a Coles "check out chick" would earn here..:rolleyes:

Speedbird, you provided a link from which I quote the following "Upon graduation from training, you can look forward to a basic salary and various allowances amounting to about SGD$3,500 a month"
How do you get from $3500 per month to $60000+ per year?

OK, you beat me to the post button, unfortunately the 6 month bonus is calculated on basic pay, which puts your calculations out just a bit.
So, probably closer to $48000, which is only because of a performance bonus.
Probably about the same as QCCA when you add in allowances etc.

I can't help you if you can't help yourself.

Just popped in to see what’s going on and as usual it’s Twiggs and her myopic viewpoint.

So apparently,I don’t like someone disagreeing with me…has anyone here watched Twiggs posts when someone disagree’s with her…Look at her posts with Speedbird….In fact I don’t doubt that she has a hot line to the moderators.

Twiggs tells us that she doesn’t work in the office…..Now I wonder where we could have got the impression that she does…Let’s look at some of Twiggs best posts and how they relate to the role of Cabin Crew and their relationship with the office.In other words what side of the fence she sits on or in…

These are direct quotes from Twiggs own posts and although she seems to have trouble remembering her own words anyone can look them up and see for themselves.....
In other words,QCCA
So once again Twiggs takes the viewpoint crew were guilty before an investigation or trial and is prepared to post it in a public forum…
So does this sound like a crew member talking or someone in the office.Of course now that this has been pointed out, Twiggs is saying that she was only being sarcastic….but to me it just sounds like a company spokesperson.KB couldn’t have put it better for the company.
Mmmmmm Company or crew talking with that one.
The best one though is this one where Twiggs let a bit too much information out about a crew that elected not to extend because of a delay.Twiggs was not one of the crew but seems to know a lot of inside info…..
You can make up your own minds after reading her quotes as to her real job....

Synopsis
 

1.Cabin Services Management are inept buffoons
2.Qantas as a corporation is imploding
3.It is going to take a gargantuan effort on the part of Allan Joyce to sort the mess out.
4.It is clear it will not happen overnight.
5.Sniping at each other achieves nothing.
Most Qantas Crew come to work expecting(a) to be delayed(b),to have a number of defects in the Cabin and(c) to have the resources necessary to do their job missing.
The whole situation is a sad sad farce.
A once proud and innovative Airline brought to its knees by a vertically challenged,poorly educated dysfunctional egomaniac and his greedy band of trough feeders.
Most of us are way over the fear factor.We will not be threatened or intimidated by Cabin Services Managment.
It has now become sport to bait them.A little lite entertainment before going to work always works for me.They are so easy to take the piss out of

So very true.

Had a conversation with a truly excellent long serving Business First flight attendant recently.

She explained that the frustration and contempt she holds for QF management are never taken out on the fare paying passenger because as she explained. They are not responsible for the way she is treated.

She does however at every opportunity use passive, obstructive, resistance towards those that "manage" her.

Cause and effect.

jqi crew rest on a330 is row of seats that are 'blocked off' (meaning inseatd of headrest covers it says "crew rest only"). These seats are not necessairly blocked off esp exDPS and is at the "CSM's" discretion.

Translation Please
 

DizzyLizzy...what on earth are you talking about?

Whenever any of you are verbally threatened over sick leave, KPI bullsh1t, uniform violations, delays or any other form of "harassment with a feather", do what so many of us are now doing.

Write the harasser [your manager] an email thanking them for the conversation and outlining the nature and specifics of the "conversation".

Advise at the end of this email that you wish a copy of it to be placed on your personal file and that you'll be retaining a copy for your records.

I can guarantee that the sociopathic, lowlife coward that calls themselves a manager will skulk off to find easier and weaker targets.

It is time to fight back.

prunezeuss......I agree with your post and that if anything is going to be done to reverse a situation that has taken years to achieve it is a huge task.I also agree with you that sniping with each other serves no purpose and that everyone regardless of where they work in aviation has the right to post and put their point of view forward.I just got carried away because some are not as honest as others about where they work and I think hide an agenda....sorry moderators and thanks for your patience.

Back to the thread.....Unfortunately,this sort of leadership or management is endemic throughout the company.I used to wonder how it was allowed to happen because I believe it is counter productive especially in a service industry.However,whether it was by design or neglect it will be a monumental job to reverse.

Speedbird is right and insisting that everything that was said should be recorded on paper is a good idea.Another idea I always found successful was to insist that the manager include his/her name,staff number and position 'CURRENTLY' held with the company.....with the emphasis on the word currently.Also smile when you say the last sentence....

As was mentioned it is a great form of passive resistance.

when you send an email to a manager that does not reply with a satisfactory answer you can email their superior with any complaint about them. the trick is to 'cc' a copy to the personal file of the original manager and 'bcc' a copy back to your own email address. this can be particularly handy if in future you initiate harassment/discrimination claim against manager plus it also looks very bad on their personal file. suddenly you will find your manager no longer wants to know you even exist. .....mindf***ing in reverse!

Mahatma Gandhi
 

Passive Resistance was used to great effect by Gandhi.
It could be used just as effectively by CC.
The Screw The Roo campaign was an example of how CC can cooperate.
With a little bit of effort another campaign could begin.

What about a STB campaign??

I recently took a QF flight ex Syd & the cabin crew where friendly enough. I know one thing is for sure I'd hate to have to deal with the public in a confined space!
Maybe now that we have seen a deterioration in T&C's (from what I read here) for crews in general it reflects back to the very people that are at the coal face of their service, the flying public. I always wanted since I was a kid to be either an Ansett or Qantas pilot but since I have learnt to fly (getting there) AN has gone & QF isn't the choice work place by the sounds of it, what now?:bored:

Flyinggit

The Deterioration of Australian Aviation
 

Australian Aviation has never really recovered from the events of 1989.
Ansett fell over..... or rather was pushed over.
Then the merger of TAA and Qantas and the resultant loss of managerial talent.
Employees in Australian Aviation have been attacked by management and you now see the mess that the industry is in.
Everybody trying to cut costs.
What they(management)have failed to realize(Particulalry at Qantas)if you portray yourself as a premium carrier there is a minimum spend required.
Many carriers in Australia are way below that minimum spend.
Competitors such as Cathay Singapore JAL and Emirates throw a lot of money at their product and in general it shows.
Whether or not they all treat their employees remains to be seen.
Are Australians whingers or are they just more vocal about mistreatment?