Jet* on NZ domestic??
 

Qantas is considering using its budget arm Jetstar on the New Zealand domestic routes, potentially putting further pressure on rivals Air New Zealand and Pacific Blue, chief executive-in-waiting Alan Joyce says. :ooh:


Mr Joyce runs Jetstar and will take over the top Qantas job from Geoff Dixon in November.

Rival Air New Zealand says the domestic market cannot sustain three airlines on the main trunk route long-term.

But Mr Joyce said Qantas would not be the one to leave: "The Qantas group will not be pulling out of domestic."

Qantas flies between the main centres and to Rotorua and Queenstown, largely to support its trans-Tasman network.

"It is a very competitive market. We think it is an important market for the Qantas group ... and we are always looking at better ways of operating and what is the right mix of Jetstar and Qantas in that market.

"To us, it's not a decision of whether we should be in or out, it is a decision of how we service it and that is one of the things that we are looking at."

The Tasman market also had "heat on it" and fares have been cut in a escalating price war to stimulate demand as a result of airlines increasing capacity.

Emirates would add the A380 in February, Pacific Blue was adding flights to Auckland and Thai Airways was expected to replace a direct service to Bangkok with a one-stop service via Australia.

"At the top of our list at the moment ... Jetstar is looking at expansion on the trans-Tasman as well," Mr Joyce said.

Currently Jetstar flies only to Christchurch, where it has replaced several Qantas services and opened some new ones.

The Qantas brand was consolidating its core business market, Mr Joyce said.

Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe has said that if all the extra capacity eventuates over the next nine months, the Tasman would again become a loss-maker.

Mr Joyce said he was confident Qantas would be able to retain its share of the corporate market, despite Air New Zealand spending nearly $60 million on adding seat-back entertainment to its aircraft on the route, something Qantas does not have.

Qantas would catch up when it put next generation Boeing 737-800 and potentially the 787 jets on the Tasman, replacing older models. However, there were no immediate plans, he said.

A further 30 airlines could succumb to record fuel costs in the next year, but Mr Joyce doubted there would be any significant failures in Australia or New Zealand.

Just out of interest, would an A320 go into Queenstown and Rotorua ok?

A320 into Queenstown & Rotorua
 

Air NZ already fly A320 into Queenstown I think.

Rotten rua, dunno

Jetstar in NZ?

What a shame. Now its gonna go from 1 airline making a little bit of cash on the main trunk to lots of airlines making sweet FA.

Having QF as big brother means deep pockets to cause extended pain for all involved.

Been a while but I'm pretty sure qantas already has a presence on the main trunk in the form of Jetconnect, if this is still the case then
isn't really applicable.
Unless of course they keep Jetconnect going and run two brands? Geez that would really squeeze air nz from both sides.
Does anyone think thats a possibility or maybe axe Jetconnect and run with the expansion of J*?

Surely it would make sense that Jetconnect will be closed down as the 737's are looking a little frayed around the edges. Bring in some nice new shiney A320's, migrate the Jetconnect crew over to the Jetstar brand and just have the one Qantas brand flying in New Zealand. In reply to the above, I doubt the profit of a competitor is not a concern when looking to start new routes, it may be that 3 airlines flying the main trunk routes is too much, Qantas will just be hoping it will squeeze Pacific Blue out.

Why dont Qantas use A320's?

Good idea.
Give Jetconnect the A320s

Some would argue they already do.:oh:

They've got nearly 30 of them.

Townsville refueller told me that Jetconnect are getting the 787's when they come. Partly cause they can operate them cheaply and partly to end all the angry posts flying about between mainline and Jet*....he was onto his third bundy by then though.

From memory......
The runway was lengthened from about 1.6 km - 1.75 Km recently to purposely handle A320 or 737NG flights( domestic). The runway is being further expanded later this year to handle Trans-tasman flights when it's finished it'll be longer than Wellington at about 2.1 km.
Don't really like their chances of getting Trans-tasman flights anytime soon though....Other regional international ( Hamilton, Dunedin) airports have had alot of their schedules scaled back due to a lack of demand.
Although Queenstown has been growing becuase of the Aussie skiers. I don't think that Rotorua holds quite the same attraction.....

Yes, Lack of Demand would be there. I thought Rotorua was in Fiji:eek:

No....think you'll find its in western Sydney....;)

Queenstown a summer playground
 

A common misconception about ZQN is that it booms in winter. Kiwis' tend to see Queenstown as a winter destination.

The reality is that winter is the off season in ZQN, and it is the summer where the money is made to keep ZQN afloat through the rest of the year. Visitor numbers in the summer are more than double the winter, and the visitor spend during the summer is higher as well.

I Wasn't talking about total tourists persee, I was referring to international flight activity... Both Air NZ and Qantas offer additional international flights through the winter season to support strong demand from Aussie skiers (wanting direct flights for convenient short stays)..... There maybe more tourists in the summer but they aren't flying in direct from overseas.
Most of these guys have more time on their hands and enter through AKL or CHC.....And yes Queenstown is a great summer playground... .

I hear that the red-rat is pulling out of CHC-ROT soon?!
Anyone know for sure?
If Jetconnect are bleeding on domestic (not sure that they are), then Jet* would bleed worse.

Is Jetconnect still going for a all 400 fleet? Are the GPS upgrades still happening for ZQN ops?

Went in there the other day, ANZ B737 landed, ATR landed, Jetconnect B737 held then bailed out to IVC, QF B737NG had a couple of cracks at the RNAV and bailed out twice due excessive wind and turbulence. Got better and everyone was getting in. Must be a real eye opener for the QF guys coming over here ever now and then.

How many RNP approaches of the turning variety are there in the OZ B737 domestic operation?

I think QF have quite a lot of experience with RNP. They actually pioneered the RNP approach at ZQN. As for Jetconnect and ROT, anything is possible but I would be surprised if it was true.

Little bit off-topic, but how is Pacific Blue Domestic going with loads in NZ , Not bad? or empty?

QF aussie and Air NZ actually worked on the RNP approach in ZQN at the same time. However QF was first off the block and lead the RNP AR approach due to having NG B737. Air NZ had some mods required due to having B733.

QF has some big projects running with 4DT and RNP and is right at the cutting edge of PBN operations.

Air NZ is the lead operator on RNP AR operations with the A320.

Wrt handing the JetConnect NZ domestic operation to Jetstar, one thing comes to mind - Qantas started the NZ domestic flights as a feeder service for its international operations so why would they convert it to a LCC operation which obviously could not act as a feeder. As far as direct operating costs, JetConnect would be as cheap as Jetstar in all respects except for the cost of providing inflight service.

Jetconnect pulling out of ROT, I wouldn't think so. I would say the average load factor for this route would be high 80% the majority of the time. Most of the traffic does originate in ZQN though, so maybe they are looking at ZQN-ROT direct. But even this I don't think so because of the RTOW's used ex ZQN.

That makes things a bit more interesting. What then is the motivation for stating that QF are considering putting J* on NZ domestic. It has to be tactical because the NZ domestic scene can only just handle three operators (some even dispute that), four would see someone crumble. Air NZ won't go, QF could keep both J* and Jconnect running for a long long time. How long would PB last? Six months? A year? They fall over or retreat back to pacific island routes and then J* is pulled if not making any money?
If they go Auckland out of Qtown why wouldn't they be able to go to RO? I'm not being faceeshu....faseeshi....smart. Just curious:)

Full 400 to Auckland ex ZQN very tight but cant land at Rot if Wet any way. Jetstar never going to be Cheaper Just have bigger ego's and more influence in QF than KIWI's

All the claims the JQ cant be cheaper...why not??
1/ Newer more efficient aircraft
2/ More seats...even lower seat costs
3/ Less overheads than QF...efficiencies with Oz operation.

Then there is the very unreliable operation Jetconnect run in NZ, the A320 will be a much better seller in the market...all makes sense to me...will prob drive some away from NZ where Jetconnect cant.

As for feeders to INT? Why cant JQ do it? The process is the same for all airlines surely?

I would be surprised to see both operating, given QF and JQ generally dont compete in Oz even..

Giving the A320's to JetConnet is the ultimate solution. I certianly would fly them with nice new A320s via the QF brand...

don't see why an A320 couldn't comfortably operate into Rotorua (assuming Rotorua is anywhere near 17-1800m). We frequently operate A320s into Aberdeen over here in the UK and that runway is just on 1800m long, no problems whatsoever. In winter we sometimes have a packs off take off because of performance implications of contaminated runway, I think though that the snow that Aberdeen suffers is probably a bit more severe than Rotorua.

Posted by TMAK
Because JetConnect salaries are so low that even Jetstar crews would gag.

Pax do not want to feed in to a full service international flight via a no service LCC flight. You should hear some of the complaints from pax who buy QF tickets between Cairns (or Darwin) and Europe. They get off the JQ aircraft in Singapore bitching very loudly as the service was not what they thought they would be getting having paid for a Qantas flight.

ROT slightly longer than HTI ( Hammo ), so r/w length not an issue

Landing distance is less than 1600m and elevation 935' - it's very tight.

Jetconnect salaries are similar to Air NZ 737 salaries. Australian wages are around 30% higher than NZ across the board. It sucks but that's the reality.

You are indeed wise Mr.Static ;)
Yes LDA of ROT around 70mtrs less than HTI, more significant is the elev of nearly 1000', as opposed to HTI sea level.
Tight, but certainly do-able with light fuel loads ( from memory, which is bad, used to carry around 9ton )

The issue is that Wellington is a jewel in the Trans Tasman crown, but 20% of international pax at WLG are business pax and 50% of domestic pax to WLG are business travellers who demand a higher level of in flight service, refreshment etc.

Pacific Blue when they first attacked the WLG-SYD route couldn't attract business travelers and had to abandon the route.

WLG-BNE on the other hand is entirely a leisure market and quite suited to Jetstar.

Jetconnect could not offer the frequency to make WLG-CHC viable.

Truth is that ROT-CHC is also probably a leisure route. Some Jetconnect routes would be more viable as Jetstar cattle class, whilst the WLG routes wouldn't be.

Going Boeing:
who is to say JQ salaries in NZ will be more? If JQ use a NZ AOC then it might be logical that JC will become branded JQ?? instead of QF....so my point still stands for now at least. Lets keep in the mind the cost of the operating crew only is a small percentage of the cost of operating a flight...nothing near for example fuel burn...not to mention 10-15% more capacity.


You also cant compare people travelling on a INT sector (of 7 hours) to connect to another flight (as your example in SIN) to a straight domestic short haul feeder service. In OZ thousands of passengers every day connect to QF and other full service INT flights using JQ & DJ domestic flights. Plus in NZ there is no full service domestic to compete with...so no diff.

Kiwiguy:
Maybe (quite possible) I have missed the point...why wouldnt business travellers go on JQ for a 50 min domestic sector AKL-WLG...brand new A320 v old 733. Sure you might get a cup of tea on NZ, but assuming JQ follow same model as in Oz you can at least buy sandwich, cookie, etc etc...or who knows maybe they will throw in a cuppa to compete...

In MEL, the AVV-SYD route for JQ carries a very high percentage of business traveller now and that is a sector time similar to AKL-CHC, so much longer than AKL-WLG.

Interestingly, there's lots of business travellers flying Easyjet/Ryanair recently.the global economic downturn will see the corporate traveller in Mac Donalds rather than the Koru lounges.
The Jet* NZ domestic strategy could be timed just right

Jetconnect supplies all local christchurch base cabin crew for the Jetstar trans-tasman opperation. Flight crew are still Jetstar employees. I would have thought jetstar would have gone domestic a while ago. WOuldn't it be as easy as flying the current QF NZ routes but with the Jetstar service? plus some new routes maybe?

I can't see the logic in that. Why would you do that when you could just outfit Jconnect with new aircraft and have a quasi-premium product for the same or cheaper cost base? Surely there's more yeild operating the QF brand on those routes if the overheads are the same or cheaper doing it with Jconnect crew?
Another rumour I heard from NZ is Jetconnect operating our clapped out 76's on Tasmans, based out of Auck and CHC. Basically taking over the QF flying on the Tasman. Just another way of screwing down wide-body salaries if you ask me.

framer, it's more about saving accomodation and allowances. Because the day's work for an aircraft starts out of AKL (for example) an NZ domiciled crew can fly the aircraft to an Oz east coast port and return (approx 6 stick hours) and then go home. Another crew then takes the aircraft to Oz and back arriving AKL late evening. The aircraft then has some hours on the ground for maintenance. All up, it's taken two crews to operate the aircraft all day for approx 12 stick hours and there has been no need for accomodation. If the crews are Oz based, then the crewing costs go up significantly. Air NZ has had this advantage over QF for many years so QF is looking at ways to be competitive on what a very price sensitive route.

The schedules are effectively locked in by times that businessmen want to travel, so there is no way to adjust the flight times so that Oz based crews don't require accomodation in NZ.

Fair enough Going Boeing, I hadn't thought of those costs.
Rough figures, with the exchange rates and lower pay of kiwi pilots I thought it would be about $750NZ a day cheaper for tech crew from NZ to operate the tasman.That is only about 273K per annum cheaper, a drop in the bucket and hardly worth the headache that would come from implementing it. (Let alone the costs)If you added $1500 a day for overnight allowences for tech and cabin crew, and the hotel costs, then you're looking at $2250 a day, or 821k per annum. The figures are probably not particularly accurate, but even so I don't reckon it would be worth it for about 1 mil cheaper operating costs on the Tasman.
Maybe if the cabin crew are cheaper as well it might be more but surely the Tasman market isn't that tight? I still think of it as a step backwards:)

Current Jetconnect salary FO = $59,500AUD + retention bonus $7650AUD PA, Capt = $102,000AUD + retention bonus $12750AUD PA. Cabin crew salary = $29750AUD. DTA = $3.57 per hour.

Operating crappy old 737 hand me downs that owe QF nothing.
NZ normal crew config on tasman = 2/5

AKL-SYD crew duty, 10hrs day per crew. White rat charging full service prices. Bean counters dream.

Will be interesting!

Regarding Jetstar expanding in NZ, I will say that Bruce is in Auckland tommorow for an Announcement.....
Exciting News is to come, looks like PB better watch out!