Not you too!
 

max1,

Not you too!

Who am I going to talk to??

Yeah I know I will be left to switch the lights out.

Just checked the Notams and it appears that the routes in from Singas, Bangkok, Indonesia, Middle east etc etc etc are TIBA from 1 am till about 3:30. That is peak hour. This really has got to stop. Airservices MUST acknowledge that they have screwed the pooch and start enticing their staff to want to come to work at all times. When I first started, I would have been embarrassed to see a TIBA Notam. Now I just could not give a sh!t.

I actually work on that group but do not hold those ratings and I can assure you that it is not through any covert industrial action that this has occured. Tops has a wealth of guys falling over themselves wanting to work OTs. When Tops goes TIBA, it is due to nothing more than the rubber band breaking.

Hypothetically (for now), how competitive would it be for a certain military controller with joint user experience to get a job at Brisbane Tower? (Ie - I know it's fairly easy to make the switch, the question is how easy it is to go to tower and not en route, and to even select which tower).

...

Even though it shouldn't happen, you will be counted as one of the controllers who did not make himself available and the email sent to the airlines by way of explanation will include you in it.

baileys, not saying it is true and has happened. Just that we don't believe it won't happen as our trust in management is below zero. So why take the chance? Especially when us doing constant overtime is the only way the system will stay close to afloat for the next few years.

Looks like they have sent the flex track around TOPS. I would hate to be on the West P doggo tonight!!



http://img183.imagevenue.com/loc154/..._122_154lo.jpg

Oh my.


Is it just me or is that Scherger Restricted Airspace back to front?:rolleyes: Geez they are useless.

tobzalp said
Now this is really stupid. Mind you not having a suitable contact detail listed with the employer is just as silly. If we could have an adult-adult relationship, trouble is both parties want to all the toys in the sand-pit (perhaps not the best analogy during a staffing crisis with staff going to the UAE).

At the end of the day it appears that ASA continue to treat staff with contempt, when will they ever learn...

They have my mobile number.

Come December21 (expiration of the EBA) ASA are going to be in even more trouble staffing wise. Controllers have been working rosters outside of Principles of Rostering (PORs) under Facilitative Arrangements (FAs).

These FAs have allowed ASA to cover rosters with less staff and controllers to work longer shifts to get more time off. Personally, I don't see the benefits. We have access to more days off, but longer term we are more fatigued. ASA (TFN) have become dependent on them in their drive for cost cutting, and it has masked the lack of workforce planning.

On December 21, these FAs expire. ASA have struggled to adequately staff with these FAs and have no idea how to fill the rosters without them. My concern is that ASA will allow the situation to develop where they will have to roster airspace closures with all the angst that will engender.

All the unfulfillable promises that the bureaucrats have promised the industry will now be blamed on the controllers. They will bundle up all the problems that mismanagement has caused, SDE, lack of workforce planning, ageing demographic, non delivery of RNPs, UPRs etc etc, and lay them at the feet of the controllers.
I am led to understand that TFN has some in principle agreement to take a new ATS system that Thales is building for the Singaporeans, and build a single 'super' centre somewhere? Canberra?2012?

The result being that the turmoil that will envelope Australia come Dec21 will be blamed not on the lack of long-term planning, and short term bonus driven management but on the controllers who have been carrying the system for years.

TFN and co. will then be able to leap into the fray and declare that, yet again, "That we have a plan".This to appease the minister and industry, and it is , yet again, someone elses (controllers)fault.

This is the type of spin and politicking that TFN and co. get paid the big bucks to pull. The provision of a properly resourced Air Navigation Service Provider with long term planning should be somewhere on the list. Unfortunately it seems to be behind bonuses and personal corporate survival.

Time will tell.

It would be interesting to see who staffs a super centre in CB, those in the NOC shop perhaps.

No disrespect to those that live in CB, but I don't think so!

They don't have the staff to even implement the concept let alone ghost a third centre.

Great rumour though

Just brainstorming here, BUT ...

Who says Australia Centre has to be in Australia :ouch::hmm:

Who says the supa centre will be in Canberra?

The NOC is not the front end it's ops central; the eventual plan is for it to have fingers on every pulse; but never 'talking' to pilots. There are no comms facilities available or planned. The displays they have a rudimentary at best and certainly not fit for moving tin; even the ones on order won't change that. Think Eurocontrol's central flow unit... Strategic planning hub, not tactical.

More interesting are the rumours of 'contracts' signed for new ATC systems that may accompany a single location; RAAF and TCUs all into a single unit; with growth potential for 'global/regional domination' (picture Dr Evil sucking little finger). I know you can do it hempy..?

Blocka said
Signing a contract and paying a hefty deposit could explain why the ASA finanical report will indicate a dip in the profit.

But seriously, I don't think any Government Department, GBE, or whatever quasi-corporate entity ASA are disguised as at the moment (pending a name change) would be able to sign a contract for such a huge expense ($120m.) Or has the Tower Technology Project forged ahead in leaps and bounds and there is clear acknowledgement that the Towers are really the centre of the universe!!

One centre, maybe but not likely.
 

Now before anyone rips my head off, look back to when the "new" BN and ML centres were first proposed. The then execs wanted one centre all along but Dept of Defence (and no it wasnt RAAF ATC) knocked it back, they wanted three for security reasons, ie PH, BN & ML. Defence also gets all civil radar feeds.

Eventually a compromise was reached and we have what we have. Only an opinion but would be very surprised if Gov. allows one centre after all that has happened but you never know.

Again, please don't rip my headoff.

and build a single 'super' centre somewhere? Canberra?2012?
------------------------------------------------------------------

How about Hermannsburg? Can't get much more "central" than there!

I know my prevous post may seem like "twaddle" , but the more I think about it ...

If our staffing problems really do look to be long term .... could ATC Aus be done remotely? Our gear, via satelite links.

I know the Kiwis are always casting entreprenurial eyes this way. We do Honiara remotely, don't we? Couldn't someone else do the reverse?

Maybe enroute only? Keep the Towers staffed by Aussies.

Political and Security issues aside, could it be that desperate that we have to consider this option?

The idea is to build a new 'super' centre, not put it in 'BS' castle.
If you check, you will find you signed something agreeing to be moved anywhere in Australia. Look at all the tower newbies that got moved to fill holes under the 'career progression' model.

I agree with Direct No Speed, if this crowd reckon they can do it by 2012, I would add 10+ years to this number.Remember SDE was invented in late 2005 and in November 2006, an implementation date of Nov 2007 was decided upon. Here we are nearly 2 years down the track of a 1 year project and no end in sight.

TAAATS upgrades used to be numbered 5.2 etc. This was supposed to mean the second update of 2005. When these were then running 2 years behind schedule they started renaming them Version 12/13 etc to save embarrasment.

I didn't say the idea would work, just that they have a concept of Plan F ready to be rolled out to a gullible Board and the Media.

He's not the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.

They don't like spending money at the best of times! Can you see them paying to relocate 600 staff!

And don't forget, they may say that you signed something promising to move anywhere in the country, but if theyu said I had to move, I would just leave... So would most I imagine.

Unless some of the workforce are originally from an environment of doing what they are told and are used to relocating every few years:E

Hmm, I don't know about that Max1, seems we haven't changed naming conventions after all; version 12 is looking good for 2012 :E

Version 12 just got rolled back off the Simulator (proving ground) in Brisbane tonight. Version 5.2 put back on. Man on the ground you're probably right.

Saw a comic strip somewhere saying that if everyone is doing 'Worlds Best Practice' doesn't that mean the same as mediocre.

Also, re- the Super Centre, got advice today that the BN and ML centres, for most people , are permanent appointments. Redundancy provisions would be triggered if they wanted to move to one centre. I'll bet they haven't even twigged to that yet. If it went to CB, BN and ML would all be entitled.

Apparently the Panic Button is being belted in meetings today as the implications of the expiration of Facilitative Arrangements are starting to dawn on the bureaucrats. You can't whittle your staff down to the bone and continue to gnaw.

We have tried to get this lot to realise that what they are doing is unsustainable for over 5 years. People are leaving and still they persist in fudging with figures. They just never cottoned on that we care more than they do about a safe sustainable ATC system, that we have been doing CPR on this nearly drowned body, and that we can't keep it up.

It will take years to recover, and they act like it will all be fixed next week

August 55th 2008 today...

August 56th 2008 tomorrow....

You bloody recalcitrants...




1. The main aim of the entity (in descending order of priority):2. Australian Cricket. As a an ex-captain of Australia I envisage that the ammount of spin I detect eminating from the "House Of Spin" on Constitution Ave, they are working on the perfect 'spinner'. I hear it may almost be a cyborg - A combination of O'Reilly, Grimmett, Iverson, Benaud, Gleeson, Mallett and Warne. Imagine bowling sides out for under 150 on day 2 at Adelaide but can drink, smoke, gamble, cuss and fornicate with 2 models at once.

Think of your country, think of the baggy green, and have a foaming mug of harden-the-f*ck-up.

Have faith the ashes series in coming.

PS Oh, and by the way, consider if Tony said to the board, "ditch the profit caveat and be revenue neutral (not a burden on the taxpayer)"(?). Problem solved eh wot?

yet another wasted opportunity by AsA yesterday at another (and I use the term loosely) "negotiation" meeting.here we are more than 5 months after we were supposed to commence EBA negotiations (AsA only managed to come to the first 5 weeks late) and we still have no offer to consider from AsA - only a wishlist of how AsA would like us to give up principles of rostering, agree to master rosters, substantial reductions in sick leave entitlements, obligatory overtime, etc.

Well, you can sit there and continue to field their demands until you get sick of it and start agreeing to some of them ... to shut them up (standard negotiation ploy)

Or, you can start putting forward your own vision and demands.

peuce, the boot is on the ATC foot. In addition to your suggestion, demand and follow through with delays in meeting timelines due to workload, meet with individual managers at odd times instead of the managers as a group, demand rewrites in contracts over minor nuances, negotiate with indiviual managers in separate areas of responsibility, demand different requirements in Brisbane to those in Melbourne just to frustrate and delay negotiations further, bust up managerial union by starting false rumours and innuendoes of what one manager said about another manager, invite the managers to meet on your terms and not theirs. Managers have been using these tactics for years. Turn the tables.

peuce, :mad:
would that be the vision document that was presented at the very 1st meeting to these people.


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

V12/v13
 

Ah man on the ground....

You beat me to it re V12 being probably 2012.

But are you really sure its a year thing??

I mean who says V13 by 2013???

You would have to be an optimist!

who says V13?

at all

:E

enlightenment!
 

motg...

"Ah, grasshopper"!!

I hope AsA don't see this
 

"Trainees In The Tower In Airliner "Swerve"


An incident that thankfully ended with some fairly rattled pilots and passengers but no more than a little lost tire rubber begs the question of who is training whom at some of the nation's air traffic control towers. The National Air Traffic Controllers Union says two trainee controllers were in on duty by themselves in the Lehigh International Airport tower when a Mesa Airlines CRJ700 had to swerve (as in the sudden deviation from a straight path) to avoid a just-landed Cessna 172 while taking off from the Allentown, Pa., airport. The widely accepted estimate is the RJ, with 60 passengers aboard, missed the 172 by about 10 feet while decelerating from 120 knots. According to the NTSB, the Cessna was told to take an early taxiway exit but missed and the pilot reported he or she was heading for the next taxiway. The trainees missed that and, thinking the 172 had left the runway, cleared the RJ for takeoff.


The Mesa crew apparently heard the 172 pilot's report that the controllers missed but started the takeoff. They were almost at rotation speed when they spotted the Cessna and swerved to miss it. While no one is so disputing the facts of the incident, NATCA is suggesting a shortage of qualified controllers played a role and it's sure to come up at a meeting of the House Aviation Subcommittee on Thursday to discuss--runway safety. "The FAA is so desperate to staff its towers they are forced to work trainees by themselves without adequate numbers of experienced controllers there to work with them," said NATCA President Patrick Forrey. "This has exposed the inexperience of our new workforce. It's unfair to these trainees and should be unacceptable to the flying public." The Mesa flight (operating for United) was cancelled."

AVwebFlash September 25, 2008

At least they have trainees in the USA...........

Regards to all
Stephen

:ugh::ugh: What a silly thing to post!

Lets all find stories about ATC from around the world and post them in the PPRuNe Forums > Dunnunda & Godzone > D & G Reporting Points > ASA Solves Staff Shortage thread....


heres my contribution -

PUSHING TIN

TT :confused:

peuce
As cattledog said, the vision document is a very good indication of what is needed to bring Aus ATC's to parity to the average worldwide remuneration for ATC. And AsA has failed to present any offer after 11 meetings to date.

According to the financial officer at Waypoint 2008 (financial report not yet released) AsA has returned something like $27,000,000 in Avcharges to industry because traffic levels were higher than forecast. That seems like a sure indication of a bumper profit to me!

The only way AsA could have made a technical loss is by pouring HUGE AMOUNTS OF DOLLARS into infrastructure (the Tower simulator springs to mind for some reason), or by paying off debt ahead of schedule.

Now why (and how) would AsA, who made $106M in profit the previous financial year, suddenly declare a loss the following year, just prior to the expiry date of an EBA?

Kavokar,

I must not be in the know then - unlike yourself.

I know of no 'live' ATC being dont by trainees on their own - if you are referring to other training activity I fail to see how that is a precedent...


I think you find that pilots use and operate simulators or procedural mock-ups without supervision...


TT

Hi TT,

The reason that I posted that article is that it refered to two situations that may be of some interest to Australian ATCs. The first being that the USA has a severe ATC shortage, as has Australia. Maybe some Aussie ATCs could look for alternative work there although I believe their pay on condidtions are not much better than ours.

The second is in reference to trainees being used unsupervised in "live" positions.

I found some irony in the fact that the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to have. And as the title of my message insinuated, it would be better if AsA did not see the article because, if and when we do get trainees in the field, it may just enter management's thick skulls to use them (to alleviate staff shorages) as reported in the article.

I hope that has cleared a few things up for you.

BTW, I have seen trainees left unsupervised, albeit for short periods of time.

Regards
Stephen

SARMC Are you really saying this and Firstly, I trust you submitted an ESIR for unsupervised trainees. Secondly, AsA does have trainees, just not enough of them. Stop trying to be sensationalist and post stuff a bit closer to the truth - it will help the ATC cause more in the long run.

What's in a name
 

IMHO, In the US trainees are that until they become the equivalent of FPC; so full rated etc, when doing operational duty solo, but not FPC = Trainee.

Hi Topdrop,

The matter of the unsupervised trainees was reported to the relevent people at the time and the necessary disciplinary action was taken at that time. This was in the days before ESIRs...remember CA225s?

Yes, we do have some trainees in the field, my mistake, my reference should have been narrowed to indicate ATC trainees being actively trained within the "college". However the yanks appear to have many more in the field and have many more in the pipeline.

The initial post, and reply to TT, were made "tongue in cheek" as a broad comparison between the two countries.

I spent almost 35 years as an ATC (and Civil Air member) which included some pretty intense industrial action including strikes. So I am not un-sympathetic to the Civil Air cause.

I was able to retire from ATC some 4 years ago and have not had to experience some of the most bloody minded management actions I have ever seen and that current ATCs are enduring.

My best wishes go with you, don't give in and, if you are old enough to remember, don't be fooled by the "secret initiative" (R Garlic circa 1978)

Regards
Stephen